to think that surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie?

[LadyOfTheManor]

Seriously, unless you're a miner or from a mining family, or Welsh... ok well even if you are, surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie T?

I'm a tad young, I was born in her "reign", but I did my degree in Politics and although I didn't really live under her (it was Major until I was 11) I couldn't see what she did that was SO terrible-let alone the sheer hostility when her name is mentioned here (in Wales!).

but if your dogs live in the shed i'll swallow my wine bottle whole

Quite, harpsichordcarrier. I couldn't agree more.

And huddspur, the point was that the govt was perfectly happy to pay subsidies to other energy industries, which would have been in the same state (or worse) as the coal industry without it.

And look at the subsidies we continue to pay to the rail companies and the like. Privatisation's not exactly been a success there, has it? (They get 3 times what BR got...)

harpsichord - yes there are millons and millions of tonnes of coal underground in the UK. It just costs too much to dig it up compared to shipping it in from somewhere else. Thatcher got rid of subsidies and that exposed that fact all too clearly and then mines shut down.

I do wish people would stop bleating about the miners. The mines were uneconomic as were the steel mills and the ship builders AND British Leyland. We could not subsidise them forever - the country nearly went bankrupt trying. Does anyone remember the IMF coming in?

Thatcher did what should have been done decades before. The economic shock was severe and the social consequences too but there was no choice. The subsidy keeping workers in jobs that were uneconomic could not go on. She had the guts to recognise that fact and bite the bullet to do what was necessary. It was not because she was evil, or hated working people. It was about saving the country from ruin.

Labour were too dependent on the unions and the previous Tory administration too weak to do the job. She came in with a landslide and did the job that needed doing.

Agree A. Totally.

And no Loopy my children and dogs do not live in the shed - they are allowed indoors against my better judgement and they mess up my house frequently. It is clean for only one day a week, and rarely tidy. I think I mopped especially for those photos. (I'm not joking ).

whoops - X posts!

Can we have a party in your house Fellatio? I can meet some real life tories (I won't eat my liver, promise!). This can be the MN inter-politics befriending party. (Politics, whatever, I just want to look at your decor really).

When did coal mining become uneconomical and needing subsidies, and why? Genuinely interested btw.

harpischord- They were uncompetitive compared to the cost of coal from other countries, thus making it cheaper to import coal then mine it ourselves.

The difference between the banks and coal mining is that that banking and financial services are more important to other sectors in the economy, if they go down they'll take the financial system with them. Why we got ourselves in that situation is a topic for another day.

That made me laugh Loopy! Yep. Come on over. We can watch a Powerpoint presentation from Alouiseg and then get pissed. Hold hands across the trenches and all that. Some of us Tory voters are quite nice really - at least I think I must be OK, as some of my best friends are socialists.

No to powerpoint.

In fact, I'm a bit scared of Alouiseg. She came on to me earlier.

Is that how you got such a nice house, by voting Tory?

I LOVE maggie and totally agree with the vast majority of the things she did. I think that lots of people make up a load of bullst in her name, just as they do about our current government. I even once saw a thread on a totally different forum claiming that she was to blame for the drug addictions in Scotland in the late 80's!! Hahahaha preposterous bllx

Powerpoint is dead and old.

Watch this instead

abouteve - the mining industry was nationalised in 1947. Many mines were uneconomic even then. Many pits were closed in swathes over the intervening years. It was not just Thatcher's doing.

The use of UK coal in generating electricity was mandatory and fuels like North Sea gas were not allowed to be used in power generation. In effect the nationalised coal industry was kept economic by forcing the naionalised electricty industry (the CEGB) to buy the coal at inflated prices and the electricity generated with it then sold on at inflated prices to consumers.

Privatisation and deregulation of the electricity industry exposed the uneconomic nature of the UK coal industry even more and the privatised power generators shut coal fired plant and built gas fired power stations instead.

Incidentally, Margaret Thatcher did more to reduce CO2 emissions and acid rain than any Govt since just by allowing competion to reduce coal burning in UK power stations.

Incidentally, I violently disagree with the bank bailout.

There is the irony - a Labour Govt bailing out bankers.

I remember it all and I despise the woman.

Whatever "good' she allegedly did for this country can never make up for the communities and lives she destroyed in such a fucking cavalier fashion.

I'll be singing along to Elvis Costello for the rest of the night now.....

Well I hope you live long now, I pray the Lord
your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms
and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life
could be so cheap
'Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the
dirt down

MummaEss her policies led to decimated communities who had no hope.

I think she was / is responsible for the resulting drug dealers moving in and subsequent addictions.

Go to Merthyr Tydfil - used to be a mining town. Now has the higest proportion of heroin addicts in the country. Co-incidence or are they all feckless layabouts?

Thanks Beenbeta.

The mining towns during the depression didn't have work for 'men' before the pits were nationalised. I'm thinking North East, where my family originated. Many went south on Labour Exchange, I can still remember the dole office being referred as this in the 60's/70's.

With our public sector set to shrink, limited manufacturing and the financial sector in trouble, even call centres are outsourced abroad, insecure private sector, it does make me fear for the future.

Sorry Loopy but that's the deal. No Powerpoint, no party. No licking my sexy walls or sniffing my stripey stair runner until you have been briefed on the economy by my learned friend. You will be held behind a rope in the conservatory, and be allowed to tour the premises in stages depending on how compliant you are. It's a bit like getting free sangria and sausage rolls at a Time Share sales convention. You have to sit through the presentation for five hours a few minutes whilst we brainwash educate you.

And no - I voted Tory from the very first time I could vote - and I lived in a fucking pit in those days. (not joking)

huddspur Fri 28-Jan-11 23:04:20
harpischord- They were uncompetitive compared to the cost of coal from other countries, thus making it cheaper to import coal then mine it ourselves.

Well, that is just a matter of perspective. Government and economic decisions are NEVER made just on the basis of what is CHEAPER. There is always a balance to be struck and it is very much more complicated than you suggest.
e.g. the transport infrastructure needs huge subsidies. why not leave it to the private sector?

The difference between the banks and coal mining is that that banking and financial services are more important to other sectors in the economy, if they go down they'll take the financial system with them.
Again, it depends what you define as 'more important'. The mining industry, and manufacturing, 'took down' large areas of the country. I was there, and I saw it. They are STILL down. But they aren't considered 'important' for political and idealogical reasons. I happen to think that judgement was wrong, economically, morally, rationally.

I'd be interested to see a cost/benefit comparison between subsidised maintenance of coal mines, shipbuilders, steelworks & car factories and welfare maintenance of the redundant workers and their communities. You'd have to take it over a timescale of 30 years or so. It is 30 years now (a full generation) so the data would be available.

Also, take into account the increased health costs, increased criminal activity and the costs thereof.

And the cost of importing said coal, metals and machinery.

Also the wages of said workers flushing around the economy would have to be taken into account. The tax revenue on the extra money etc.

The cost to the public purse? A no-brainer. £65 a week for JSA. Far more affordable than salaries.

Pascoe really? What is the % of stealth taxes that most people pay when they spend their wages, not to mention the income tax/NIC taken off at source.