to consider single sex schooling

[deliakate]

Have one boy and a little girl on the way, and it looks like we are going to choose single sex prep schools for both (although DS would be co-ed from age 3-4) under this arrangement. Am I mad???

There is a difference between being called slut and whore by a boy and by a girl though.

Particularly if that boy assaulted you last week.

D'you know something, we never called each other names like that.

We knew it was sexist shit.

Do young girls not know that anymore?

HerBex, there are many girls who do know when something is 'sexist shit', but the change on this front is taking and will continue to take a long time. It's values and ingrained habits embedded within many families and institutions. It takes guts for pupils to speak out or take action in any way.

There are people on here that assume I've been looking for a row with my comments. I'm not. I cannot be held accountable for what every secondary school in the country does, or what policies they do and don't have. I am simply stating that many places are evolving since so many of our generation did secondary schooling. Equal Ops policies won't change things overnight, but at least they exist these days, with most schools having had them in place for the last 15 years or more. In rural areas the change seems to be slower. (I taught in inner London schools for some years, then in outer London, then mid Kent.) I wouldn't dream of sending either of our girls to a school without one.

I'm very tired of statistics being waved around like the answer to everything. As I've said on MN before, unless you're going to quote where and when these marvellous surveys were done, by whom, with a sample of how many, their backgrounds etc then it's pointless. Statistics are often used in the same way a drunk uses a lamp post - for support rather than illumination. They can be used to support any argument.

At no time did I say it was obligatory to attend co-ed education in order to have functional adult relationships, or that pupils who've attended single sex education have worse ones. I simply pointed out that it probably helps many.

As I've said up-post, it's not just the school that communicates values to our young people. No matter where our children are being educated, we can be good examples and encourage self-confidence, kindness and analytical thinking in them. Ours may be a different viewpoint to their school, but we'll be around for longer, with any luck.

I'm not assuming you're looking for a row mehelia, you're arguing your case which is absolutely fine, you put forward some good arguments and I don't disagree with everything you say . I do object to you saying that you're better informed than me on this though, you don't know if you are or not. Being a teacher doesn't automatically make you better informed and working with schools in a local authority, doesn't make me better informed. The thing which can give us some insight, is the very thing you're objecting to - research.

The research I quoted was carried out by YouGov last year, with a sample of nearly 800 secondary school girls, properly weighted for demographic factors like class, rural vs urban, etc. 800 might not sound much, but in fact that's an extremely robust sample size, much bigger than many. And yes I take your point, research is often crap and doesn't give us all the answers, but YouGov is a well-respected research company and tbh, however crap research is, it's better than anecdote and gut feel, which is the only other thing we've got to go on.

I'm not saying tht single sex schools are the be all adn end all either btw - just discussing pros and cons adn flagging up issues people might want to consider.

HerBex, I am in total agreement with you about the pros you listed about all girls' schools.

I attended all girls' schools till I was 16. It was a safe haven for girls' to develop themselves as individuals and believe in their ability to grasp everything, before the reality of entering a male dominated society takes hold and pushes them into a box.

What you said about everything revolving around them is so true. It is probably the only time in their lives where a structured environment caters solely for their sex and its needs, as opposed to seeing them as a group ancillary to the main act.

Peope whose children are too thick to get into academic girls' or boys' schools or as teenage girls picked careers with low pay such that they cannot pay school fees when tehy have their children tend to seek to denigrate the best schools in the land. It's simple jealousy most of the time. Also thes are not that pressured. My girls at North L and Habs weren't pressured and didn't have eating disorders. Some girsl of all kinds in all schools and all times will have had eating disorders but it would be wrong to blame the schools.

I certainly am glad my sons are in a single sex prep because everything is for the boy... by behiavour is not an aberration which female teachers deplore. Boy interest and boy books are the norm. It's great. Similarly my girls could know there was no subject at school which was for boys or a boy thing because everyting was done by girls and they've done pretty well.

But if it's prep school level and not junior part of a seniors then look at where the leavers go on to as that is a good indicator of its worth.

HerBex, I haven't said I am more or less qualified than you to make a judgement. I don't know where you got that from.

I just disagreed with your generalisation about mixed schooling being heavily gender biased these days. It did happen a lot in the 70s and 80s, not so much now. It's a pretty damning 'observation'. You can't possibly tar all schools with the same brush. 800 schoolgirls of indeterminate age are still a minute sample nationally. I can only assume from the wording that YouGov carried out their research without a neutral standpoint in order to promote something. I'm cynical, I know.

If that's your main point about what single sex schools have to offer, then I don't see it as valid. That's all I was saying.. anyway, digression, digression. OP, I really hope you've managed to find something in this thread of use!!

Sorry I misread " I just feel I have an informed opinion that differs from yours" as a more informed opinion that differs from yours... obviously didn't read it carefully and must have been feeling over-sensitive. Sorry.

I think my main point, is that nearly everywhere girls and women go, the world is designed for men by men and we are there on sufference and every single adjustment we make to the space to try and make it equally ours, is met by cries of "oh look, feminist fascists have taken over, they're trying to change the workplace/ education system/ political system so that they can do down men!" That is why female only spaces are valuable - they're already designed for girls/ women and they don't have to fight to get them adusted to their needs.

And I'm always suspicious of the argument that says: "oh things used to be like this in the old days, but it's not like that anymore". It just sounds like a variation on the "you're all equal now, what are you complaining about" POV, which of course I disagree with.

Anyway I'm sure the OP has enjoyed our digresion.

Takver and HerBeX, the stats you quoted Takver are comparing state comps. I am talking about my children's excellent co-ed independent school. There is certainly no gender divide in igcse subjects chosen nor in the ALevels.

Also, during the last 2yrs the annual lower 6th expedition (this year trekking in Nepal, last year building a school in Peru) has been organised by one of the 6th form girls. They have a committee to decide who is going to take the helm. I'm quite sure the 'leader' is chosen on merit regardless of their sex.

The vibrancy at their school is electrifying and every child seems to think they are capable of whatever they chose. I love it and wouldn't change it for the world.

Oh and we had a girl a couple of years ago who won a national prize for engineering after school supported her with her piece. Her prize was a scholarship supporting her through university.

Don't do it, OP.

I was the first year of co-ed intake at a well know public school.

The boys in my year were normal. The ones in years without girls were much more subject to bullying, and a kind of rowdy abrasiveness with each other that made lots of them a bit lonely (boarding perhaps exaggerated this).

Then in the sixth form loads of girls from single sex education arrived. Over half of them had to be checked into meals as they nearly all arrived with 'eating issues'. They all came to breakfast polished and made up (the co-ed girls were much more relaxed around the boys) and were noticeably more neurotic.

That's fair enough, Cora. I don't have any experience of private education, so I can only really comment on state comps.

I do think it is a shame that there are so few single sex comps surviving, and that they get 'rolled in' with hyper-academic indy and grammar schools.

I think they are very different things, yes.

I can see how in some respects a single-sex comprehensive can be of benefit to a girl.

It's just reading things about peroxide blonde hair and short skirts etc. Neither of which would be tolerated at out school. I am also very confident that any boy making any kind of sexist remark would be in serious trouble and more importantly, he would also be made to feel quite ridiculous for holding such views.

I am looking forward to my DS and both my DDs becoming school delegates at the Model United Nations and all the other opportunities offered by school. And I'm sure all this opportunities are made even more enriching as part of a mixed sex team.

Yes I think you are comparing different things with private v state, then chuck grammar into the mix and then chuck faith, then individual ethos... stats can only give you broad brush stuff. Useful reference, but not the deciding factor.

Yet no top school is mixed sex is it? Or not many. Eton, North London C, St Paul's boys, St P girls, Wycombe Abbey, i could go on.... they are all single sex except Westminster which has girls only in the 6th form but virtually all are single sex.

It's great for girls in a single sex school. Much much better for them.

Commenting on the bitchiness ishoos in single sex schools - I believed the same when DD went to a single sex secondary school some years ago.

HOWEVER, a neighbour of mine is Head at a mixed school and expressed great relief that DD (not a naturally bitchy person) had gone to a single sex school as her experience was that the girls in co-ed environments were MUCH more aggressive and competative (or bitchy - my words, not hers) as they competed in front of the boys, so single sex schools can have a lot to offer.

Plus, if they're private schools, they probably socialise with other single sex schools ie the boys and girls schools will generally get together for social events etc, to enable mixing.

I think the key here, mixed or single sex, is to question why on earth the social focus is solely on dull and vacuous things like what you look like, how attractive the opposite sex at that place thinks you are, which person within your gender seems the most popular, etc. It's all signs of low self esteem if these are the only social preoccupations.

Why can't the school provide better things to think about? (And I don't just mean dull and dry 'study the influential women throughout history' stuff..) Where are the role models among the staff? School visitors? Older pupils? Where's the inspiration? Where's the focus on looking at the challenges and ishoos for others?

These are points that any school could look at any time. I don't think it happens enough in many schools..