to consider single sex schooling

[deliakate]

Have one boy and a little girl on the way, and it looks like we are going to choose single sex prep schools for both (although DS would be co-ed from age 3-4) under this arrangement. Am I mad???

I'm also a bit sceptical about the argument that life is mixed so girls should be prepared for it. Life's sexist, racist, unfair, sad, brutish and short as well, but the best defence against that is to protect children from that and give them the confidence and self-esteem to deal with it. I think an all girls' school where the pupils are not being exposed to sexual harassment on a regular basis, can help give girls the confidence to not accept sexism and unfairness as the norm.

OTOH a bad one can entrench it, it's swings and roundabouts isn't it.

I looked round a secondary school (mixed) where they had notices up saying things like "Girls, remember to speak out in class!" "Boys, you too can sit still and focus!" (Can't remember the exact wording, perhaps they phrased it more tactfully...) Anyway, the fact they had to say it suggested that the boys were getting all the attention by playing up, while the girls were too busy trying to be feminine to actually learn anything. Put me right off that school!

I respect your opinion, HerBeX. I just disagree with it.
Especially the bit about mixed schools teaching girls very early on that they are less important than boys. I don't see any evidence of that.

On a personal level I could never entertain the notion that it was more important that my DS earned the grades and became financially independent than it was his sisters. I would be equally as happy for him to SAH or follow his partner as I would his sisters if that was what made him happy

I think it's the 'educating them separately because they need preparing for different futures that bothers me.

See I think educating them together prepares them for different futures just as much.

One in which what the boys say counts and what the girls say doesn't.

And I think the evidence that girls are trained early not to think of themselves as as important as men, is all around us in the fact that so many women put men's needs before their own and don't question why they're doing that.

Based on my experience - two oldest boys at a single sex prep then a mixed one - I'm not a particular fan of single sex education. It does depend very much on the personalities involved, though. Ds1 (quiet,gentle and sensitive) found it hard being at a single sex school, ds2 (loud and confident) loved it.

I find the atmosphere of the mixed school much calmer and more balanced, although I must admit it's been a shock to me to see the way the girls interact with each other (one minute they're all friends, the next X has fallen out with Y, Z is being talked about, the next week Y and Z are best friends) - I didn't expect it to be like this at the age of 8!

A big factor for me as well was having three boys and no girls - I felt it was a healthier balance for them to see girls learning, interacting, socialising together.

BTW I agree with you, girls don't need single sex schooling to consider themselves full human beings.

But it can re-inforce good values from home and counteract bad values sometimes.

I'm not saying it's a panacea though. And of course, as you would with any school, it's the overall ethos that you should be looking at and if a girls school has a crap ethos and a mixed school a brilliant one, I'd go for the mixed every time. And vice versa of course.

I went to a mixed school, DH to an all-boys. Based on our experiences we were both convinced of the merits of mixed schooling, and wouldn't have dreamed of sending DD to a single sex primary (had any existed around here, I can't think of one!).

But when it came to secondary, the clear frontrunners were a single sex grammar (loosely twinned with a boys grammar) and an independent with a boys and a girls division - in both cases teaching entirely separate, some social and music/drama activities combined. These were what she strongly preferred, not just our view. In the end (as both were entirely acceptable to us) it was her choice, she went for the GS - so far adores it and finds the learning environment in a class of 28 girls calmer than her (much smaller) mixed primary class.

The school we wrote off immediately, BTW, was a single sex independent where bleached blonde and spray tan was de rigeur - that would have been so wrong for DD!

HerBeX, I think you make a lot of good points.

I think it is also important to realise that a lot (a large majority probably) of all girls' school are either private, or grammar, and therefore tend to be both socially selected and academically pushy.

I went to a not-particularly-academic girls' comprehensive, which definitely wasn't socially selective (mainly because there was a mixed faith school nearby that picked up the middle class/pushy parent brigade).

My experience was that it wasn't socially isolating - we mixed plenty with the boys in the boys comp next door, nor bitchy. The big advantage that I saw over friends in mixed schools was that you didn't get grief for choosing and being good at 'boys' subjects - ie maths, physics, etc.

I would like to think that things have moved on, and that there isn't that sort of informal sex segregation, but I don't know.

I left my girls school six years ago. We could take food tech but not design and technology...
it was actually because we were so vile to the teachers they couldn't get anyone to do it. (I said it was a terrible school!!)

But yes, lots of people did sciences and maths and there was no negative attitude toward it. It was a very pushy academic school. Lots of people went to oxbridge, the way in which it was pushy was very negative though IMO, very keen on building people up so that any little failure was absolutely devastating. We were told to expect to all break down (and that was true with the range from tears to being sectioned for anorexia and depression) between the start of year 10 and finishing GCSEs in assembly!

Given that my DH is an engineer and I was also really into physics (although did a philosophy degree) I'm not terribly worried about a lack of love for sciences in our house.

But that is a personal thing for us.

Much like my negative experiences. The thing that really worries me is that parents thought our school was fantastic! Not a replica of St Trinians complete with threesomes and drug dealer's hanging around...

Yes I think that's a massive caveat Takver - all the girls' schools round here are grammar and all the mixed schools are comps. There's only one mixed grammar school in the area and there are no single sex girls' comps at all. So if you want single sex education as a girl, you have to pass your 11+. And if you want a grammar school, you automatically have to have single sex education. It's all very odd.

It is odd, isn't it. The LEA tried very hard to kill off my old school, in fact back in the late 80s, despite the fact that it was reasonably popular. It only survived by turning itself in to one of the early Grant Maintained schools, & they did in fact shut down the boys' school next door. Perhaps single sex schools mess up the numbers, so they only keep them going for grammars, which are by their nature likely to be reliably over subscribed.

HerBex, I disagree with your generalisations totally, and I don't say that on MN very often. I've got very recent experience of f/t uni study (most of the students much younger than me, so I was part and parcel of y/p's social lives for a little while). As part of the course we spent lots of time in a variety of secondary schools and looking in detail at what went on socially. I really don't agree that the education system educates boys and girls differently. I think it definitely did in generations gone by, but times have changed. Admittedly, maybe this is peculiar to the schools here in the SW, but I doubt it. There is such a thing as equal opportunities policies in almost all schools these days.

I'm not going to get into a debate about it (sick DD upstairs coughing her guts up), I just feel I have an informed opinion that differs from yours.

OP, I suppose there must be benefits to single-sex schooling, but I'm not sure what they are. Things have moved on a lot. I see my DD (9) having lots of friends of both genders, and learning through direct experience that there's something to be said for both. Even at her age, there are some pupils of both genders who are often chattering about being interested in the oppposite sex. It doesn't stop them learning, they've got a really engaging teacher. I think you can teach your child to be a thinking and discerning participant in their education, wherever it happens. It's good prep for life. How on earth will they cope with a mixed uni and/or workplace otherwise if you simply want to 'protect' them from the evils/influence of the opposite sex? It's something they'll always need to face at some stage. What if it proves a huge distraction when you're hoping they'll be career building?! A single-sex education has to offer them something extraordinary, way over and above this, to make it worth it. And I can't really imagine what that it. I think it may be taking control too far.

missmehalia - "How on earth will they cope with a mixed uni and/or workplace otherwise if you simply want to 'protect' them from the evils/influence of the opposite sex?"

I have to say that looking at prominent women in public life, a very high proportion of them were educated at single sex schools.

Now, I'm not arguing either way as to whether their single sex education was an active benefit or not (as I've commented above, single sex schools are in the main private / grammar schools, which tend to produce a large proportion of high achievers). But it would appear that a single sex education hasn't damaged their ability to 'cope' with a mixed workplace or university.

From a personal standpoint, I would say that I have always been less inclined than the average to keep quiet & put up with things (including Oxbridge / consultancy, so reasonably high pressure) - perhaps the result of a lack of 'early training' in putting up with the boys?

Certainly if there were the option of a girls' state comprehensive near here, I would consider it as a definite option for dd (though of course it might be good or bad, like any other school).

But are we all trying to bring our girls up to be 'prominent women in public life'? Isn't that projection? Can't we just support them in finding their own path, prominent or not? I don't think it's the job of these children to lead the lives that their grannies/great grannies didn't. Their journeys are their own.

There are also probably just as many 'prominent women in public life' (and I'd love to know how you define that) who went to co-ed schools...

And it isn't just the workplace or place of education where some knowledge of interaction helps, either. What about personal and family relationships?

This is an interesting study - based on 71,000 girls in single sex comprehensives, and 600,000+ in mixed comprehensives:

"A 2009 analysis of Key Stage 2 and GCSE scores of more than 700,000 girls has revealed that those in all-female comprehensives make better progress than those who attend mixed secondaries.The largest improvements came among those who did badly at primary school, although pupils of all abilities are more likely to succeed if they go to single-sex state schools, the study indicates" (quote from Wikipedia, but there's a longer article here )

Suggests that equal opportunities policies perhaps aren't an absolute panacea?

Of course, as others have pointed out, exam success is in no way the only or most important part of schooling. However, in a society where women on average consistently earn 70% of what men do, having good exam results is really helpful. And of course if you have the ability to earn a decent living, you are far more independent, less likely to be stuck in a bad relationship, etc etc.

MissM, do you have any evidence that argues that girls educated in single sex schools have worse personal and family relationships? I've never seen any evidence either way, but happy to be corrected if there is.

I'm also fascinated (as an ex girls' school pupil) of what you think the experience is like

"And it isn't just the workplace or place of education where some knowledge of interaction helps, either. "

I certainly don't remember lacking 'interaction' with men or boys during my years at secondary school . . .

Of course, a single sex girls boarding school would be a very different thing from a regular state school (particularly in the 80s teachers strikes where you all had to be off school grounds every lunch and break time!)

If anyone wants to do a study I volunteer my old school!

The statistics for depression amongst teenagers is 1 in 6. At my school it bordered on 1 in 4.

My school was obsessed with prominent female figures and how we could become them and I 0 being friends with the most bright and promising has watched as it has ruined my friends lives. I'm talking about people who got 100% in their GCSE's and A-levels but are utterly broken inside. They have no sense of identity outside their success or other people's. Anything less than a first at University pushed them to attempt suicide. Abusive relationships because they're only worth what other people think of them how they are 'rated'.

They are wonderful people, and very bright, and they will be successful at what they do but there is no way I'm risking that happening to my DD. Ever.

That sounds dreadful :(

Is it a comprehensive? Its really unusual IME for comps to be that pushy & academic.

No it was indie, and boarding (though very few people did).

It was really awful. And the worst thing is that apart from those that ended up in therapy, nobody really sees it. A lot of their parents think they did the right thing sending them there. All the bad stuff was kept very secret.

I have a friend who went to girl's grammar and has friends that are the same. If there was a girl's school that didn't bang on about 'being the best' I would probably consider it but...

Some people cope fine, it's not a problem. But if you have a low confidence personality, but are very diligent add all that pressure and my God the result is awful. Same at any school I imagine but I have noticed it more at girl's schools because there is added angle that women traditionally aren't as successful. And you are expected to be the generation that changes that.

Missmehalia, if schools are offering such an effective equal opportunities education, how to explain a recent survey which found that 1 in 3 secondary school girls have been sexually assaulted at school and over three quarters have witnessed or been subject to sexual bullying?

Girls are regularly called names like slut, whore etc. almost daily and very little is done about it, whereas racial abuse has to be reported to the LEA. Over a quarter claim to have seen porn on mobile phones in school and 25% also claim that their teachers never said unwanted sexual touching, sharing of sexual pictures or sexual name calling are unacceptable.

Given those findings by a large and reputable research survey (YouGov), which used a properly weighted and robust sample group, I don't have any faith in the equal ops policies of all schools. I acknowledge that some schools may have effective anti-sexual bullying policies, but if nearly 1 in 3 girls are actaully being assaulted in school, then that's a massive problem IMO.

I am laughing at the idea that girls don't call each other slut and whore without boys around.

Looking at my old school's website, and their 'top quotes' of good things about the school, I think we're maybe on a bit of a different planet . . .

"Students feel safe in school"
"Students are considerate towards each other"
"The excellent range of food provided at the school canteen has a high take-up and is appreciated by students"

I guess that this is why I always feel moved to point out that the traditional views of girls' education reflect a particular type of girls' school, and that it is not a genuine picture of the totality of single sex education in Britain.

LaWeasel a friend of mine used to teach in one of these over-achieving girls' schools, and at one time she had 1 in 4 of girls in her class with eating disorders.

But she said it wasn't because of the school - although it had high standards and high expectations, most of the really inappropriate pushing, came from the parents, many of whom were the type to ask "what happened to the other 2%?" when their DD's came home with 98% maths scores or whatever.

OK, she would say that wouldn't she, but she's quite a sensible balanced woman and I believe her!