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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In thinking - this isn't just normal 'tween' horribleness is it?

60 replies

Cleofartra · 24/01/2011 13:12

DD (11) is driving me insane.

Current annoyances:

Stays awake half the night then refuses to get up in the morning. If I try to turn her light off she screams that she's scared and is generally so impossible we have to turn it back on or she'll wake the entire neighborhood up. Every morning it's a huge battle to get her out of bed. Every night it's a huge battle to get her into bed. She has woken DH and I up 5 nights out of 7 in the past 6 months - complaining she doesn't feel well, or can't sleep or thinks there's been a break in.

She never, ever, ever does anything she's asked to do. Hair washing, homework, having a bath, tidying her room, getting her uniform/bag ready for school, picking her stuff off the floor. Won't do it until you've asked her 10 times and got angry. Not even then most of the time.

Has graffiti'd her newly painted bedroom wall with moronic slogans: "Yo, Gabz!", "Hate the haters, love your friends!", "My life, my rules!".

Refuses to do any exercise at all.

Hides junk food in her room and eats at all times of the day and night.

Is rude to me generally but especially in front of her friends.

Won't take responsibility for anything she does wrong - losing her uniform, upsetting friends, getting detentions etc. It's always someone else's fault.

Is very attention seeking - has lots of annoying strategies, her latest being to ask forcibly, volubly and at length for us to buy her things that she knows we are going to say 'no' to - a hamster/new phone/high heels/make-up, and to keep asking and going on until one of us loses the plot with her. She's also always going on about her aches and pains - always ill, always feeling sick, always got a head-ache (unless there's a chance of a shopping trip/burger/bar of chocolate on offer in which case she makes an instantaneous recovery).

She's an absolute pain in the arse about homework - doesn't write it down at school, or writes it on random pieces of paper which she then loses. If she absolutely has to do it she'll get it done in about 10 seconds, and it's usually done very badly.

For some reason her teachers mostly think she's great (she's very lively and engaged at school, though she complains about school constantly at home and says she hates it) and has just been put on the gifted and talented register.

She's lovely to everyone else's siblings but utterly vile to her own two younger brothers, especially my 5 year old ds who has autism. She deliberately winds him up, and shouts at him. Calls him a 'freak' and a 'spaz'.

She's driving me and ds NUTS. We're trying to be calm and firm with her, and to sing from the same song-sheet so she can't play us off against each other, though she tries. DH told me the other day that he finds her really unlikeable and I understand why. She spends about 90% of her time at home being obstructive, rude and lazy. She gets loads of attention and affection and is not missing out on anything. She's also got lots of friends.

In the past year she's experimented with every type of dysfunctional behaviour. She self-harmed for a few weeks, scratching her arms and sucking big welts on them. She showed it to me and to the school nurse straight away and we talked about it. She got bored of that after a while. Then she started playing up about food. She'd refuse to eat anything I made her and storm out the house in the morning without breakfast. She'd go hours and hours without eating and then sneak into the kitchen and eat biscuits while I wasn't looking, so I'd think she hadn't had anything that day. Then she started eating everything in sight saying 'I just can't help myself, I can't stop eating'. That lasted a month or so and she put on a bit of weight. She's not doing that so much at the moment so I assume she's brewing up something else to worry us with.

A few weeks ago she disappeared after school after telling some friends she was going to run away for 3 hours just to worry me and her dad. It was a freezing dark night and I was beside myself with anxiety when she didn't come back. The school and the police liaison from the school got involved helping us to track her down, and she did eventually appear come home of her own accord. She wasn't at all contrite even though she knew I'd been in tears and that the whole family, including my newly widowed mum, had been terrified that something had happened to her.

She's been referred to CAHMS and is waiting or an appointment, but in the meantime I'm at the end of my tether with her.

If things are going her way (ie she's getting what she wants) she's generally very high-spirited, confident and cheerful), but if anyone thwarts her or says 'no' to her she just becomes impossible.

Sad

Would you judge the behaviour I've described above as normal for a child who won't be 12 until August? Doesn't seem that way to me. I'm tearing my hair out over it.

OP posts:
bubblewrapped · 24/01/2011 13:15

I would be looking at her friends as being the influence on a lot of this behaviour.

Has she just started high school and begun mixing with a different crowd?

It does sound more like the behaviour of a rebellious teen rather than an 11 year old.

iamamug · 24/01/2011 13:37

She sounds awful but I think you need to be really tough. Sanctions have to be put in place and carried out - No tv, no computer, no going out etc etc.. She has to see that there are consequences to her actions.
The night time scenario is ridiculous - she should not be waking up the house like that but I think you have to be tough for 1 or 2 nights to break the cycle -

She's acting like a toddler - What was she like then and how did you deal with her?

Agree with bubble that you should look at her circle of friends - if you feel they are a bad influence you will need to look at what you can do.

I am really sad at how she treats your youngest son but I'm sure she will grow out of that.
I hope it doesn't hurt him too much.

Bumpsadaisie · 24/01/2011 13:46

To answer the question, she sounds way beyond what I imagine an 11 year old to be like, even what I imagine a 15 year old to be like.

Not sure what to suggest, except do you think she needs more positive attention from you? Mum and daughter cinema trip? Dad and daughter day out?

clevercloggs · 24/01/2011 13:49

have you considered a very hard clip round the lughole a couple of times a week/day

HalfCaff · 24/01/2011 13:50

I recognise a lot of this and do feel sometimes that we are about to tip over the edge (and my daughter is not even 11 til March!) I have been putting it down to hormonal changes (she has not started periods yet but has had other signs of puberty for some time) and tiredness, as there is obviously a vicious circle going on with the sleep thing.
Have you considered a small nightlight? Re: the room-tidying, I made a small breakthrough this weekend with giving her a 15 minute timer to blitz her room. I said she could focus on it for 15 minutes then she could go on YouTube for 15 minutes. She said 'But that's the opposite of me!' (i.e. being focussed and organised) but I got round this with 'Well, that's OK, because it's only for 15 minutes, and you can be an actress being someone else for that long.' (Her great love is drama.) I do find instant reward works better than threats of grounding, removing items etc. I think her stubborn streak just won't let her give in to threats but she can't resist instant reward!
I don't have many constructive suggestions but just wanted to add my support. You are not alone, and it is quite teenagery, which they nearly are.

rinabean · 24/01/2011 13:52

I'm really appalled by this post. I'm struggling to write my thoughts down. "For some reason her teachers mostly think she's great" Do you realise how you sound? No wonder the poor thing is misbehaving like this. You're her mother. Why are you being so cruel about her? You wonder why she plays up when you also wonder why anyone could like her. Do you think she doesn't know what you think of her? I feel so sorry for her.

If she genuinely "gets loads of attention and affection and is not missing out on anything" she wouldn't be so desparate for your love. Happy children don't act like this.

According to your post, everyone likes your daughter but you, her father and her brother. Do you not think that perhaps it's not that she's horrible and unlikable, then? Maybe it's you.

woopsidaisy · 24/01/2011 13:53

Crikey Cleofartra, you have my sympathy. She sounds like a right handful.
My own DC are much smaller,so not sure if my advice is a going to sound a little "pie in the sky",but maybe you need to take a step back.
Girls are hitting puberty much earlier now,and going through the teenage thing earlier too apparently. I know I was a right arse as a teenager,my sis was a bitch to my mum and dad too. We all get along great now.
I agree that she needs to be hit where it hurts with some of these things.Removing computer access,mobile phones,visits with friends etc. also stop cleaning and washing her clothes if she does not put them in basket/help with laundry/hang them up etc.But make a list of infractions and how they will be punished-and stick to it! No spur of the moment punishments. Know where you all stand on things.
Also,as I say take a step back.Sounds a bit "Dr Phil",but she seems to be trying to say something. She may not even know what it is! But deep down she may be insecure or really stressed.
Keep the lines of communication open.A new step I took recently when my DS1 was driving us all mad was to stop shouting. I had a sore throat from bellowing all the time Blush. So I stopped. And even though he still drove me nuts,things didn't escalate so much into total meltdowns.
I really feel for you. I'm sure I will have my day with this behaviour too.

newpup · 24/01/2011 13:53

No..That is not within the range of 'normal' behaviour for an 11 year old. Sorry Sad

I think that you need the help that CAHMS can offer. Have you tried the The Parent Support Network, they may be able to help.

Good Luck

SherbetDibDab · 24/01/2011 13:55

She does sound desperately attention seeking. Is there any reason for that that you can think of?

cheekyseamonkey · 24/01/2011 13:56

My niece will be 10 in April and behaves like this. The cause in her case is no distinct Adult in charge. She has been brought up by a lazy mother (sorry sil, but you are!) who has let granny take charge when it suits her but then barks orders when she wants to. She never follows through on threats so the kid just pushes and pushes, knowing that she will get just one more inch. Her parents were in a very destructive, loveless relationship (which should have ended as a holiday romance, but ho hum) and split up 18 months or so ago. Unfortunately Daddy retained the house and lives 5 doors away from Grandparents and is constantly breaking the rules and doesn't pay anything for them but always tells them he's too poor to buy them anything because of mummy. I could go on. So in short, it's not unheard of, but there are usually some deepseated reasons. Good luck.

ApocalypseCheeseToastie · 24/01/2011 13:57

It sounds like she's doing it for attention....has she been assesed in any way ?

MillyR · 24/01/2011 13:58

I would break it down into different issues that you are going to have to deal with separately.

  1. She has no routine. You need to get her back into one through sanctions.
  1. Her behaviour towards her brother is unacceptable. That also needs to be dealt with through sanctions.
  1. She has issues with food and self harm. That needs to be dealt with very carefully, and while you are waiting for the appointment with the counsellor, you could phone a helpline and get advice.
  1. The homework issue. At secondary school children have to learn to take some responsibility for themselves. For the moment, I would let the school deal with incorrect uniform and homework issues through their sanction system. You have enough to deal with. The school can't think she is that wonderful or they wouldn't be giving her detentions.
  1. Her physical symptoms sound typical for a child who is suffering from stress or some other mental health problem. They may well become less frequent once she has had counselling.

As someone else said, I would be concerned about who her peer group is.

I hope everything works out for you.

1234ThumbWar · 24/01/2011 13:59

i have a dd the same age, also the oldest, also beginning to show signs of puberty and she isn't like how you describe your dd. A bit moody at times and needs a bit of reminding, but that's it. I don't think my dd even knows about self harming, so I would look at who she's spending time with.

What kind of punishment does she get, if my dd wrote on her newly painted walls - actually on her walls full stop I'd go mad. She'd be expected to save up for the paint and re - do it and would have other punishment ie. mobile removed, early to bed etc.
Do you spend time on your own with her?

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 24/01/2011 14:01

I'd say that "normal" for an adolescent is anything from quietly obedient to what you're describing tbh.

It's good that CAHMS are involved, but she's not a monster - she's just a normal, angry, PITA teenage girl (like I was, and my friends too).

Please do read rinabean's post though. MN is a place to vent about this kind of thing for sure - and most of us have referred to our DCs is less than flattering terms on here, but try not to lose sight of the fact that she's your daughter - and you're still the most important people in her life (despite what she'll say about friends). Adolescence can be utterly shit - she isn't necessarily enjoying being such a PITA.

TheVisitor · 24/01/2011 14:01

None of my 11 year olds behave in that manner, nor would they dare. She does sound like there is something not quite right there. How long has she behaved like this? If this is a recent thing, then get her on complete lock down. Hormones may be a reason, but they're not an excuse. Lockdown involves grounding, no phone, no computer, no MP3 player and all other treats. If she goes out of the house, then it's with your or DH. Give her the opportunity to earn her stuff back ie. a day spent being helpful and pleasant with everyone gives her TV rights back. If this has been going on for some time though, then yes, CAHMS are the way to go. Lastly, but important, refuse to argue with her. You're the adult, she's the child. The minute you engage in arguments with her, that's when you lose control. You also have to make a massive effort to notice when she's being good.

Best of luck.

HalfCaff · 24/01/2011 14:01

Agree there could be some underlying emotional disturbance; I am sure there is to csome extent in our case because of a particular situation I won't go into - aside from trying to handle that as carefully as possible, the question is how to deal with the behaviour as it occurs, and I strongly agree that drawing up a list is a good idea, and not having spur of the moment punishments, shouting or smacking. Very very hard though when they push you so far.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 24/01/2011 14:05

try not to lose sight of the fact that she's your daughter

Sorry - that sounds dreadful. I'm sure you won't lose sight of that Blush

What I mean is that she isn't necessarily being so hateful on purpose.

I hope your CAHMS appointment comes through soon.

snowpoint · 24/01/2011 14:05

You are doing the right thing in seeking professional advice. From what you've posted it sounds like more than discipline or parenting issues, and it sounds like you all need help to deal with her.

I could cry for her poor little brother though. You especially have to protect him against that kind of vile behaviour from her, that's awful and must be very difficult for him to comprehend. Sad

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 24/01/2011 14:07

TheVisitor when my mother tried that kind of thing, I absconded.

Tactics like that work with younger children and with plenty of older ones too, I'm sure. But they can (and do) backfire.

MillyR · 24/01/2011 14:09

I don't think it would backfire if she absconded. She is 11 - if she kept vanishing then social services would have to become involved and the OP would not be coping with things alone.

TheVisitor · 24/01/2011 14:09

It can, and it depends on the child. It has worked on my 11 year old daughter here. Would you have absconded at 11 years old? I did say that it's only if this is a recent thing, reading on, it sounds like there are further issues.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 24/01/2011 14:22

Maybe not in the first year of secondary, but absolutely yes in the second. I remember being in a odd state of utter terror - I used to frighten myself - and complete fearlessness.

SenoritaViva · 24/01/2011 14:24

It doesn't sound typical of an 11 year old. I am sure you have tried, but, have you tried talking to her about why she has so much anger that seems directed towards you and your husband? Children are sensitive and she could be bottling up something she has misunderstood. I also wonder whether the gifted and talented aspect has anything to do with it? Boredom etc. Or that she thinks you don't love her/believe in her etc. Anything can set this belief off - and you may be supporting her belief through her (foul) behaviour.

I really hope this sorts itself out. How difficult.

PixieOnaLeaf · 24/01/2011 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Cleofartra · 24/01/2011 14:37

Thanks everyone.

"For some reason her teachers mostly think she's great"

Well - she's lazy, hardly ever does her homework properly and is quite naughty in lessons. She's still in top sets for everything. She gets away with a lot because she's pretty, clever and can be very charming and is one of the few middle-class kids in a school with a very rough intake. She gets away with a lot at school and I'm not happy about it. I want her to achieve. Not cruise her way through school on her charm.

"Why are you being so cruel about her?"

Not cruel. Truthful. She's a very confident, talented, clever child. But also rude, selfish and lazy.

"Do you think she doesn't know what you think of her? I feel so sorry for her".

I've told her I don't like her behaviour. I'm sure she knows she's loved - I tell her I love her and I show it by the fact that I keep trying to do what's best for her, even though it would be a damn sight easier for me in many ways to let her do what she wants.

"According to your post, everyone likes your daughter but you" her father and her brother".

No - our wider family agree that she's hard work and are exasperated with her too.

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