to wonder what the fuss is regarding Private Schools?

[peppapigandhumf]

A friend has 2 kids at a local prep school. She doesnt really bang on about the school to me etc but i wonder why bother pay for education when schooling is free.

Is it really just about small class sizes and fancy expensive uniforms?

Well my privately educated DCs' uniform all comes from the 2nd hand uniform shop at their school. Even brand new you could probably get it for less than £50 all told including primark shirts and bog standard grey trousers. Most of the time the kids at the schools look like tramps- uniform all tattered and in bits. That is so not why mine are there.

LittleMarshmallow, my mother died the year I started primary school. Do you think Private school would have made that better? Obviously so. I am very sorry for your loss, but that is a crap reason to put forward for private education and personally upsets me.

Maybe that's where the difference is in private and state because IME at 13/14 they start talking about where they are heading to, what A Levels are required to get there and therefore what GCSE's they'll need.

Again, I'm very aware that I'm generalising, but I suspect the only difference between state and private in this respect is the support at home - if you're paying for your child's education, you're going to do everything you can to make sure you get your money's worth! (Rightly so!)

As a teacher in a 'state school' (although its a bit different in Scotland, as far as I can gather) the kids who are motivated and want to do well and are looking to their future are the ones who have the "right" support from parents and who value education. Generally, the kids who are disaffected do not have this support at home or their parents do not back up the school (I'm thinking of one particular child I teach whose mother thinks the sun shines out of his bum, but he's a horror in class - but it's the teachers' fault of course... ) My input does not matter much in the grand scheme of things. If it was such a big factor, why does kid X absorb everything I say and hang on my every word when kid Y in the same class switches off as soon as I read out the register?

And the teachers keep them on the straight and narrow, that is the age a good teacher makes all the difference in my opinion.

Yes, teachers have a huge influence on kids, but that is not exclusive to only private or state schools.

It's notying to do with whether clothing is new or second hand! It's the power of the logo.

backwardposson, if work ethic were as important as you say, then TeachFirst would not be so successful.

re qualifications and capability -- the evidence shows that the ethos, qualifications and qualities of the teacher are a major determinant of the success of pupils. In some ways, you could say that's what TeachFirst is all about.

there is a detailed report on the topic of school systems and what makes for success that was done by McKinsey a few years ago. It makes for interesting reading.

www.mckinsey.com/App_Media/Reports/SSO/Worlds_School_Systems_Final.pdf

Actually I was talking (generalizing) about secondary school not primary. But I think I'm with soup dragon actually, people are too fixed in their views on both sides to see the other point of view, so I'm dropping this now. Am satisfied with my choices for my dd, am sure you are all doing what you think is best as well for your dc, neither of us have any impact on the other so live and let live.

I attended an absolutely awful state secondary school where the teenage pregnancy rate was about as high as the school's GCSE pass rate (which was about 15%). I think I'm one of two that managed to go to university from my school year.

To achieve my GCSE's I had to work my arse off considerably harder than the private schoolers down the road. I doubt many mumsnetters have had the pleasure of spending five years learning nothing as the top set class is too noisy to teach - never mind the incompetence of my subject teachers. I self-taught most of my GCSE subjects by nicking revision books from the school library and spent most of my high school years being bullied hideously for being a swot. I spent many years being jumped, spat on, property destroyed, verbally abused and socially isolated. It's taken me until my early twenties for the psychological effects of my school days to subside.

I would have benefited greatly from attending a private school or a good state school but unfortunately my parents couldn't nor wouldn't have helped me find a scholarship to a private school or find a decent state school. If I was taught in an environment that wasn't as anti-intellectual as my high school, I would be a hell lot different today.

I'm terrified of sending any of my children to a state secondary school due to my own experiences but I didn't have access to the 'wonder' of grammar schools. I'm not bothered about sending them to a state primary though as you can teach them how to read, write and add yourself. But I think it is harder as a parent to make up for the shortfalls of a mediocre state education at GCSE Level - I have no idea how to pass a single GCSE nowadays.

I am not pro-private/anti-State, I am simply pro the best available school for my child.

I am guffawing at the whole idiocy of the "fancy uniform" comments. DSs blazer is £25 from the uniform supplier. Kitting him out cost no more than it would have done to send him to the state comprehensive and, if you didn't know the school uniforms, you wouldn't be able to spot the private school pupils from the state school ones apart from the strict adherence to uniform policy.

I am not ignorant about state education. I am fully aware about what is on offer from each of the schools in my area and I chose accordingly. All I want is for posters to have the decency and intelligence not to assume they know better than I why I made my choices and what my chosen school is like.

And yes, in an ideal world, all children would get identical education. However, the only way that will happen is when they replace teachers with computer programmes so every child is accessing exactly the same stuff. Once you have done away with the cost of employing teaching staff, you can build identikit buildings with identical facilities and little cubicles so that children can sit in isolation from each other to learn in an undisrupted environment.

Soup Dragon - well said.

I believe you believe your reasons.
I just think every one of those reasons is a load of self-serving shit. It's the 'my child my choice, my priority' Tory mindset, isn't it.

I AM anti-private and pro-state and not afraid to say so. I disapprove of private schools and anyone who uses them, in the same way I disapprove of Range Rover Sports, dropping litter, anti-social behaviour and Nestle.

Hating private education is a political position - and so is using it. The difference is that the people who use it refuse to acknowledge that that decision has any wider significance than for their own little darlings.

My dc goto private primary schools, I don't regret it for one single moment not moneywise or in any other way. I am having to make a lot of sacrifices to send them there but it's worth it in every single way. I am also scared shitless of the education system having gone through it myself. I did go private for secondary though which made me realise that I was very lucky to do so, because apart from anything else I actually LEARNT something.
It is true to say that all situations are different and I firmly believe that private is the right choice for my dcs, because all the primaries around here are really far behind in terms of quality of education, mainly because all or concentrating their efforts on teaching children the English language.
I also know someone who got their dc from private and put them in state primary(due to financial circumstances) but two weeks later put them back in private because of the massive difference in education. It does REALLY depend where you live.

JoanofArgos - how do you feel about home schooling?

I don't believe every child should have an identical education but that every child should have access to a good quality education appropriate to them and that it should have no bearing at all on how much money you have.

A lot of the worries about state education seems to be the disruption caused by bullies and those not interested in learning. It would seem to me that this can only change through better leadership and a zero-tolerance approach.

I honestly believe that if everyone had to use the same schools, a lot more energy would be put into solving the problems.

sali81, but if your dc HAD to go to one of those schools, wouldn't you and the other parents that care, actually DO something about improving the standards - campaign/fundraise/volunteer etc etc?

It seems fundamentally wrong that you are quite happy to let other children have a crap education as long as yours are OK.

What's the view like from up there on the moral high ground, Joan? I expect you have also made sure that you live in a small house in an area with high crime and poorly rated hospitals and schools, and you're not taking any interesting holidays, so that your children are not given any advantage whatsoever over the average child, whatever form that mythical being might take.

I think it's deplorable that not all children get a decent education that matches their abilities and interests. I also think that many people with children in private schools overstate how bad state schools are - most state schools are fine and most children would do just as well there as at private schools, if you are measuring educational as opposed to social outcomes. What I don't agree with is that the way to resolve this mess is to level everyone down to the average. I cannot see how it would be for the good of UK society for my son to have gone to one of our local schools and been bored rigid for three years while his classmates were taught at a level he'd passed by the time he was in Year 6, and quite possibly bullied for being a clever, quiet, well-behaved geek, and then taken a less challenging and rigorous set of GCSE subjects than the ones his independent school offers. And for the avoidance of doubt, I mean my son, not everychild. Other families with different children would have made a different choice in our circumstances.

sali81, but if your dc HAD to go to one of those schools, wouldn't you and the other parents that care, actually DO something about improving the standards - campaign/fundraise/volunteer etc etc?

If they had to go there I would spend my life improving their chances by paying for tutors, music lessons, sports clubs etc which is exactly what most state school parents do now, they look out for numbero uno.
Why do you think a sudden influx of 7% of extra parents would make any difference whatsoever ?

Saying you hold a certain political position isn't the same as claiming the moral high ground, is it?

You all keep saying 'I know it's right for my child' as though that's the end of the matter. I know you know it's right for your child!

Your own position is also evident by the statement you don't want anyone 'pulled down to average'. Presumably you're equally opposed to anyone being 'pulled up', then?

Lucky politically I don't have a problem with it, personally I admit I have reservations.

Portofino - it's a valid point really. But how much would people be attacked campaigning for state school if their child was in a private one? Tarred, feathered and daubed 'hypocrite' methinks.

I couldn't function without the support my daughter's school gives me now - all those extra hours and kindness are important. I have exhaustion, hospital visits - all the boring stuff that ill people endure. It takes away the stress for the family.

I find it really sad that people can hate and call reasons for choices 'self-serving shit' - of course the choices you make in life are self-serving. If we are honest, most things are. Our families are precious. It's judgemental and shallow though.

Oh and and as for posh uniform (another daft mindset) - my daughter's school doesn't have uniform.

Lots of people spend huge amounts of money on holiday - we haven't had a holiday - well I can't actually remember when we had a holiday. Our money is ploughed into our child, rightly or wrongly. I don't feel aggressive toward people who drive bigger cars etc. If you accept in life that there will always be someone younger, richer blah blah blah - you don't get stirred up about anything. I have friends in different financial circumstances and I teach my daughter to take people in an in-depth way - not to judge with the criteria of money or position.

Oh and I am not a Tory - another daft assumption.

This thread makes my heart heavy, really. Mostly the aggression. Although there are some well-argued and intelligent points.

But mostly the aggression. Is there any need for it?

Hear hear londonmother! I am a London mum also, and I went through exactly the same thing your son did, hence the reason why I'm sending my dc private. In hindsight I can see my son would've gone through exactly the same thing. After experiencing the years of mind numbing boredom, bullying and general indifference to education I came to the conclusion that I would rather forego luxuries then send them down the same route. Not much has changed since I went to school, but by God don't I just wish it had.

How do you know nothing has changed if you're not sending your child to state school anyway?

I should have said that my political position is that I've never voted Tory in my life and I can't see that I ever will. I voted Labour in every election I was eligible to vote in up to and including the 97 General Election. I was hoping that Labour would get us back to a sensible position on schools. Instead they went on with what the Tories had done, ie encourage parents to look for the best school for their child and encourage schools to sell themselves and compete for the most able children. In a contest like that the middle classes will always come out best and it's no great surprise that social mobility is worse now than it was when Mrs Thatcher came to power.

When I say I don't want everyone pulled down to the average, I mean that the tyranny of league tables and badly designed targets have pushed a lot of state school heads and managers to steer children towards the easier subjects and that's not been the best thing for either the children or the economy/society as a whole. To take just one example, there are now schools where hardly any children take a modern language beyond the age of 14 (all about to change to comply with the new EBacc target, of course). Modern language teaching in this country would have withered on the vine in the last 15 years if there hadn't been independent schools supplementing the good work done in grammar schools and a minority of comprehensive schools to get children to work hard at languages and go on to study them at university. You could say much the same about sport, music and science.

I will start worrying about other peoples children when the wider community starts to give a shit about my son with social needs.

Their schools give them access to activities and support that none of my local state school could match.

I am quite sure that there are loads of state schools that could have done so but I have none. So if anyone thinks that I should have chosen a much more limited life for them because of their political principles theyvare dreaming.

If your politics mean that you will hate me because I want my dcs to have access to sport and drama and activities that would not be possible if I had to take them there and drag my distressed and difficult autistic son with me I am not sure I can see the loss of your friendship as much of a loss.

As someone eloquently put on a benefits thread - dismissing a whole group of peoplecwithout any perspective that they are all individuals and ALL have a backstory is stupid.

Special needs ..
Fucking auto correct.

Anti-Private Schooling is generally fueled by jealousy and inverse snobbery