To feel a bit miffed about the Big Fat Gypsy series?

[NannyState]

I dunno. It just doesn't sit comfortably with me. I am third generation Irish Traveller. My grandparents 'married out' and so left the community. However, I still identify with the culture to some extent and am proud to be from Traveller stock.

I know that there are elements of the Traveller culture and traditions that are old fashioned, conservative and certainly not female-friendly. I am a in no way defending a lot of what goes on within Traveller communities.

However, I really feel like the 'Big fat Gypsy Wedding' series is just taking the piss out of Travellers, really, and I cannot see C4 having the gall to do that with any other cultural group.

Am I alone in this? It isn't telling even half the story of the Travller experience. And it doesn't feel like a genuine, documentary 'glimpse into Traveller culture', it just feels (to me) like an excuse to all have a good laugh at the chavtastic pikeys and their big meringue dresses'

Your OP is exactly how I feel about it. As I said in another thread, it seemed to be a way of pointing at the communities and saying how stupid they are.

I wasnt deeply uncomfortable about it.

Ironically though, the doco that it came from was genuinely about a Gypsy wedding and I felt that it was far more interesting and also sympathetic. It showed how hard it was for a traveller couple to book a wedding because of prejudice, the couple concerned had their reception cancelled 2 days before when the hotel found out they were travellers.

This new series is just horrible.

i WAS deeply uncomfortable

igetmorelovefromthecat Yep i would agree the series is only concentrating on Irish Travellers not Romany Gypsy - and the cultures are very different, although there are some similarities.

The series should be called 'My Big Fat Traveller Wedding'.

Irish Travellers call themselves 'Travellers', Romany Gypsies call themselves 'Gypsies' and mixing them together is as offensive and wrong as saying that English / French is interchangeable.

Irish Travellers are from Ireland where they have been nomadic for hundreds, perhaps over a thousand years; Romany Gypsies originate from Indian tribes and mercenaries who came from india well over a thousand years ago.

There is some intermarriage though; on the programme last night Josie was marrying Swanley who appeared to be Romany - 'Smith' is a well known Romany surname

Exactly twosides.

Though DP seemed fairly convinced that Swanley was an Irish traveller. Not that he knew him personally! I asked him if the two cultures ever married into each other and he said no, that wouldn't really happen.

i watched the programme, with delight and with some disgust.

The "tradition" of grabbing is tantmount to sexual assault, but it's ok if that's their tradition!! No it's not. The girl who was grabbed last night was obviously upset, but what can she do?

Tush!

Also, if so many of the "travellers" like in bricks and mortar, then i'm sorry they are not travellers.

what did come through is that the people in the documentary were nice if not foolish people and on the whole meant well.

it will be interesting to see how the series develops, and will it be able to differenciate between proper travellers or not.

I am also wondering where the money comes from for these very expensive dresses, they must cost thousands, and how a 15 year old can afford a £300 dress. Why is money not talked about openly, and why is it no object? They dont seem incredibly weathly, rather like the average Joe.

My parents are Romani, which means I am, though they've been settled for many years now.

I deliberately avoid this program because I know it would piss me right off. I was brought up with certain traditions, some beneficial, some not so though my family (especially on my mother's side) stopped speaking to them over certain things my parents are good people as are their slightly misguided families.

Our relationship is strained, I left home at 16 to have a more "normal" less controlled life, paid myself through college by working 3 part time jobs whilst attending full time. I don't think I'd have had the strength of mind at 16 to do this had I not had the self confidence instilled in me that my upbringing gave me. I've done exceptionally well in every job I've ever had, lived in clean, tidy well maintained homes and bring my children up with good values, knowing men and women are equal. Everyone comments on how well mannered my children are.

I now live in an affluent, very middle class town, with a son at the best school in the area, on track to take his maths and science GCSE in year 9 and in the gifted and talented program.

It's so very easy to judge when you only know what you see in the media, which is selective.

Nobody would think I'm Romani unless I told them so, and it's NOT acceptable to make racist remarks just because our skin colour doesn't differ from yours.

Hardly any travellers actually travel, whether they are gypsies, Irish travellers or new-age. They tend to live on sites and move very rarely, usually for work reasons.

Since Thatcher was in power, being a proper travelling traveller has been virtually impossible (google Battle of the Beanfield). There are so few places to stop that once they find a steady park up they will tend to stay there.

But still, certainly where gypsies and Irish travellers are concerned, they have a very defined culture and just because they are not moving around all the time doesn't mean that they are not 'proper'.

You are rather naive if you think that's all there is to it Bogeyface. How did the venue suddenly 'find out' two days before? Did they not notice they were travellers when they booked the venue? Were names and addresses and deposits not taken? It is very common for the venue of Traveller weddings and parties to be announced at the very last minute, by word of mouth, rather than formal invitation in advance, and it has as much to do with feuding between clans and avoiding having the police/authorities turn up to have chats with specific elusive guests as it does with persecution and rascim from the venue owners.

perhaps i could class myself as a traveller and be tax exempt even though i live in bicks and mortar but have moved house an average of ervery 2 years aged 33?

maybe i could claim special status and say it's down to my families culture and claim some money from the EU. Doubt it.

They do cash in hand work and many avoid contributing to the area that they may or may not temporariliy live in.

The first communion dress, Jesus! need i say more?

The tax exempt thing is a myth.

I, and my parents have the same tax liabilities as "normal" people that are uk nationals.

do you live in a house tho sjm and pay council tax or live on a site and pay council tax that way?

sjm123 - good for you, and your ds. There is such a negative stereotype surrounding gypsies.

DP has been a professional musician for over 20 years, he is a very well known DJ and runs a charity which has raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for street and orphan kids in third world countries.

Not exactly a thieving, work-shy layabout!

Don't be a nobber ohyouknow, Travellers don't stop being Travellers if they move into a house, in the same way you don't stop being english if you move to scotland. Its not what you do, its who you are.

The trouble with providing local authority sites (or granting planning for private sites) with as many places as they apparently say they need, is that they then increasingly cease to travel, and stay put in (often static) mobile homes, thereby defeating the object of needing sites with places for transient residents.

Plus, what other culture can just buy land and build on it/live on it, circumventing all planning laws, or demand that the local authority provides them with land for their exclusive use? Could you imagine what would happen if I took a caravan and moved it onto a council owned site? Or if the council started providing loads of legal sites but decided they were a cheap and effective way of housing asylum seekers, and asked the Travellers and Gypsies to share?

iget - my ex's bro runs a charity that teaches street kids in India and Rio circus skills so they have a means to make money instead of begging and foraging in the dumps and has raised loads of money for it too. Nothing traveller related mind, just similar!

Ohyouknow - I live in a real house, as do my parents though my grandparents were true Romani. Born on water. Makes no odds.

i'm not being a "nobber" but i would have tthought that a prerequisite of being a memeber of the traveller or gypsy community would be that you travelled and moved around?

One of the bug bears that many people do have is about this matter and not paying taxes and contibuting to the local area that they stay in - if they are proper travellers.

I am not judging you, so please don't be so defensive assuming that you think i am attacking you. You say you live in a house - you are not a traveller, i.e. you don't travel around the uk every few months.

You understand and were once part of that?

No, traveller/gypsy/romani is a way of life and an upbringing and a set of values.

There are many, many travellers that would find that very offensive. It's similar to making derogatory comments about a person's religion. It's like deciding all black people are muggers, because you've read in a paper that it's been a problem. Not all travellers, settled or otherwise are feckless.

i appologise then if i have caused offence. hopefully this series will help people like me realise what it's all about.

however from what i have seen it is a very sexist and patriachial society where women and girls do as they are told.

i hope to be proven wrong x

No, it won't. That's why I refuse to watch it!

it won't prove me wrong or it is an inately patriarchal society? I am from an irish R.C background but i don't see myself as irish or RC as i don't practice and was born in england.

It is a patriarchal society, but no more so than many religions or countries. It's part of me, the same as anyone born in England would say they're English.

I may have to come back to this tomorrow, as I am a bit (totally sleep deprived) knackered had a couple of small glasses of wine and don't generally drink much.

Apologies if I came over as a tad harsh there ohyouknow, I wasn't meaning to have a go, just trying to explain. I'll try again tomorrow (if) when my brain works!

I don't really understand why some posters feel the need to a) attack me and question whetehr I have Traveller heritage (bizarre!?!) b) turn this into a slanging match.

Odd.

Anyhow, interesting to hear genuine thoughts on this. Thanks.

And yet many people who are from Irish RC backgrounds who are born in England do identify with the culture ohyouknow.

Travelling culture is like a religion, think of it that way. There may well be people from travelling stock (I am guessing OP is one) who live in houses who no longer engage in many of the cultural practices that define travelling culture. However, there will be many that do.

There is extreme prejudice about travellers in Ireland. Extreme. Perhaps you have picked up on this (as it is unlikely that you have not been at all influenced by your Irish heritage, despite what you may think).

My mum works with a travelling family in her school (in Ireland). They live "in brick". The mum has just had her 11th baby at the age of 38. The kids are ultra-polite and respectful within school and cause far less trouble than some of the rest of her current cohort.

Everyone can tell a story. However, it would be absolutely unacceptable to say that a black or Asian person was a thug or involved in gang crime etc because "once a friend of a friend had their house burgalled". There may well be many aspects of many cultures that are alien and sometimes they may even be held to be wrong by many members of another culture (e.g. female circumcision or "grabbing" or, for some commentators, women wearing the veil etc). However, this is not about exposing or questioning cultural practices in any serious way: it's about poking fun at beliefs that are sacred to a specific group of human beings in a "look how the quaint little thick people get wed!" kind of way. Like a freak show. It reminds me of how indigenous people were brought to the Old World and put on show for the amusement of the wealthy.

I don't think it's okay, to be honest.

Yanbu at all.