To feel a bit miffed about the Big Fat Gypsy series?

[NannyState]

I dunno. It just doesn't sit comfortably with me. I am third generation Irish Traveller. My grandparents 'married out' and so left the community. However, I still identify with the culture to some extent and am proud to be from Traveller stock.

I know that there are elements of the Traveller culture and traditions that are old fashioned, conservative and certainly not female-friendly. I am a in no way defending a lot of what goes on within Traveller communities.

However, I really feel like the 'Big fat Gypsy Wedding' series is just taking the piss out of Travellers, really, and I cannot see C4 having the gall to do that with any other cultural group.

Am I alone in this? It isn't telling even half the story of the Travller experience. And it doesn't feel like a genuine, documentary 'glimpse into Traveller culture', it just feels (to me) like an excuse to all have a good laugh at the chavtastic pikeys and their big meringue dresses'

Leningrad, I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think the programme was an example of the middle classes looking down at travellers. I agree with the OP.

i've seen the second ep, it's a bit more serious, covers their houses being torn down etc due to lack of planning permission. it's really very sad in parts.

thing is, though, from what i understand of a friend who is indeed marrying a traveller, this is indeed what the weddings are like and they do look down on 'our' society and have no desire to live by our laws. so as nice as some of them might appear (the groom in next week's is a sweetheart) they kinda think we're scumbags and fair game.

lol i'd like to see you try to get permission to do a real doc on the traveller community... unlikely.

I'm not sure which 'lazy sterotypes' you had in mind nannystate but so far (I'm halfway through this episode and I watched all the last documentary) I haven't seen any reference to any the most commonly held stereotypes of Irish Travellers. On the contrary, I have been aware of a very deliberate avoidance and diplomatic glossing over of the most contentious issues, and a rather rose-tinted focus on 'educating' us about the culture.

I watched the programme last night and found it very interesting. we already have a very big gipsy/ traveller site in our community, we have lots of problems with them and the local kids do all they can to avoid them,

Found out yesterday that the local kids playground/park is possibly gonna be knocked down to make way for another legal traveller site, this is 100 yards from my home and next to a primary school and opposite our local shops,

In the summer this playground is always full of young children, its the only decent one in our area, I won't believe it till it happens but if it does I defo will be moving.

I think channel 4 was very reserved not to mention how all their apparent money comes from

I'm sure no-one would argue it was all from properly declared and taxed honestly earned income...

Channel 4 did a light hearted documentary about their crazy weddings... could have been a lot "worse" so I wouldn't get on my soap box about it to be honest... the gypsies wanted to be filmed and were happy having the cameras in their lives there.

you should watch Pavee Lackeen

Good point LeQueen lmao!!

yes you are right

I agree with MyLifeIsChaotic and LeQueen that the clue was in the title and this was about the spectacle of the weddings and communions rather than being a documentary about the culture in any depth.

There are so many threads on this at the moment that I haven't commented on them.

I work closely with the Travelling community and the local authority and often visit unauthorised nomadic encampments for welfare checks and visit the settled community living on authorised sites and in brick.

I thought the programme was a fairly accurate depiction of Traveller culture; however please note that this lifestyle is only true of a minority of Traveller and Gypsy communties; there are estimated to be between 300 - 500 000 Gypsy and Travellers in the UK but only a minority lead a nomadic lifestyle on the road; the vast majority are housed in brick and 'invisible' to other people.

I do agree that some people will watch the programme and poke fun at the big dresses and the dressing of the young girls; but equally I also hope that people will see a little about the culture of a people who are the last acceptable people to be racist about; and with that, I hope for some understanding.

Yes the programme was meant to be entertainment; there were some phrases that sprung to mind as knowingly condescending by the narrator; the girls in 'packs' and Josie 'thought that the thigh high split wedding dress gave it that certain Spanish something', but on the whole it was fairly fair in its depiction of (Irish) Traveller weddings and culture.

I do found myself empathising with the young girls about to be married and the complete contrast with how women and girls are treated in the settled culture; however many other cultures also treat women very differently, and there is not the same level of judgeiness.

Yes; many Travellers do leave school either at or before 11. It is felt that to leave children in longer erodes their Traveller culture and can leave them to pick up Settled values (alcohol, promiscuity etc).

Traditional Traveller values are very anachronistic; there is an emphasis on self reliance and boys will follow their father's trade and help out in the business from a very early age; likewise women and girls will start household chores and childcare as soon as they are able. Childhood as we know it - the time for a child to be a child and just play - is a luxury that families cannot afford. Traveller children, male and female grow up very quickly and are very mature and self confident compared to their peers.

Travellers do have a very hard life. As has been pointed out on another thread a 2005 health study highlighted the inequalities that exist between the Travelling community and the settled population. Traveller men live 10 years less than the average population and Traveller women over 12 years less. Traveller women are over 20 x likely to experience the death of a child. My predecessor visited a settled site where a baby had just died of a congenital illness - and as a mark of respect to the family, paid her respects by visiting the trailer with the baby laid out in an open coffin.

Many women suffer from depression in this community; there is often a very small living space and many children to look after; although more Travellers are in favour of contraception (sometimes without their husband's knowledge), large families are the norm - one recent client I knew was expecting her 14th live child at the age of 39.

As a feminist I do find it upsetting when many women do not feel that they have any choice and once they are out of their father's power, they are transfered into their husband's. DV is common and to some extent, accepted; although a man who went too far would be ostracised.

However the strict gender demarcation is part of their culture; like so many other cultures. The biggest fear of Travelling communities is that they will be assimilated into our culture and lose their identity.

In many ways their culture is dying. I think eventually things will change; it is more difficult to be mobile and perhaps education will become more important to them in giving them the means to fight for their culture and play a bigger part in our society. I think gender roles will change too; just as ours have in the last century or so. But I hope they will not be consumed into our own culture.

I would say that the program makers showed the wedding one first as a viewer hook to get them into the series, because gypsy weddings are designed to be a spectacle and you do want to have a look (same as most weddings IMO).

Does anyone know how other gypsies and travelers view those who choose to move into a house?

Is the moving to a house seen as a temporary measure by those living in it?

It seemed obvious that the family who was in the house still strongly viewed their identity as a gypsy one, it made me wonder whether they were seen as 'selling out'.

It's a series so will cover other angles in later shows. I thought it was interesting and well done.

I find the programmes fascinating, and respectful. It's an insight into a community which is usually closed and secretive. I used to teach housed traveller children in my youth and am ashamed to say I did not know much about the community back then.

The dresses, which hook viewers in, are outlandish, but outlandish for a variety of interesting reasons.

I did not realise, for instance, before watching the original programme, how much Traveller families have in common with Haredi (ultra Orthodox Jewish) families. They are both closed off from the outside world, staunchly devout and marry very young.

Of course you are going to get people who take the piss but that was going to happen regardless of the tone of the programme. Unfortunately it seems to be OK to be racist towards Travellers and Gypsies.

Yes; many Travellers do leave school either at or before 11. It is felt that to leave children in longer erodes their Traveller culture and can leave them to pick up Settled values (alcohol, promiscuity etc)

To be honest, based on what you have said in your post...I would say it's not so much the alcohol and promiscuity that's top of the worry list. It's far more likely they are aware of the fact their children will learn that there is another life outside of the travelling community.

The children at senior school age would be taught about a whole world that involves exam results leading to high paid non manual jobs, contraception, sexual equality, women in high powered careers etc..etc...things that may 'turn their heads' and possibly make them realise they have a choice in life that doesn't involve the community values they've been raised to believe are Gospel.

I also think that you are less likely to get cooperation within the community to make a programme about the negative aspects of Traveller society. If they won't talk about money I doubt you'll get anyone to discuss domestic violence.

Agentzigzag Many nomadic Travellers do choose to move into houses or 'brick' often due to ill health; increasing age or more recently younger families wanting children in regular school, or the fact that there is a huge defecit of pitches on authorised sites (in 2007 this was assessed as a nationwide shortage of 5000 pitches - but there is a est 5% increase per year).

It can be a difficult transition in the same way as it would be if we were told the only way to get housing would be to accept a caravan. Some families prefer bungalows as they are more similar to caravans; and a house with a first floor can be seen as alien: I knew one family who were forced into brick who all slept in a downstairs room just like in a caravan.

Some Travellers find the prospect of brick detrimental to their mental health. They miss the freedom of being able to just up sticks and move as their families have done for hundreds of years. A house is a chain.

Alternatively some families do make the adaption well and still feel they have retained their identity.

Well a house may be a chain but they're bloody lucky to have that chain compared to those who have to sleep on the streets. Most of us have to compromise at some point in our lives.

mutznutz Yes, I agree I think there is a fear amongst the (ultra) Travelling community that our settled society is a threat to their society precisely because of what it could offer especially to women.

It has to be said however that prejudice goes both ways; there is a lot of ignorance and possibly racist views of our society by Travellers too: many Travellers believe that paedophilia is rife amongst our community, and they are so fearful about letting their children go out of their sight out of fear they will be snatched.

White British women are seen as 'easy' and 'sluts' by Traveller men because the majority are not virgins when / if they marry. Traveller women pity Settled women because they just 'give away' their virtue and are used by men in our society.

Indeed twosides it's a weird world we live in. From what you have said it doesn't sound too disimilar to some other ethnic communities to be honest...but double standards prevail, usually with the men who have no trouble bedding said 'sluts' on a boozy night out while the 'good little wife' stays home and keeps house (or caravan..or whatever)

mrsvWoolf the fashion for Traveller girls may raise eyebrows but it's a simple way to advertise what you have to offer when you are forbidden to date boys and get to know them first. It's definately look but do not touch though.

Home ed is fairly common but there are more Travellers staying in school to college age although they are the minority. There is a Traveller Education Service who provide worksheets / books designed for Travellers - e.g. maths worksheets discussing horse prices e.g. or books which feature the travelling lifestyle as a prevailing way of life e.g. Ruby's Rabbits / Sean's Wellies.

unfortunately Home Ed is a bit hit and miss. Home Ed does allow for vocational learning taught by parents; but the actual supervision of a teaching service is v low - about 2 hrs a week on average.

mutznutz there is indeed a double standard - men may fool around without censure before marriage - as long as it is with a non Gypsy or Traveller woman. But it isn't so long ago (pre 1950's) that our society was the same, I guess to some extent

My DP is a Romani Gypsy, 7th generation, and never lived in a house until 2009 when we got together.

He watched a bit of that programme last night and it really pissed him off. It has to be pointed out that the travellers shown were ALL Irish travellers, not Romanis, and the two cultures are completely different.

Some parallels do exist, such as girls being chaperoned and remaining virgins until marriage, but Romanis are a lot more low key then what was shown last night.