What on earth is wrong with vaccinating children ffs?

[poshsinglemum]

I'm sure this has been done before a million times.

A friend of mine who has gone all woo recently isn't vaccinating her dd because some quack gave a lecture on the evils of vaccinating. My ex boyfriends mum was a complete quack/chrystal healer and begged me not to vaccinate against typhoid, encaphalitus, rabies etc when I went to the third world. She gave me a homeopathic kit. Needless to say I got the jabs anyway.

I think that the ''evidence'' not to vaccinate is coming from the woo crew and is fuelled by paranoid conspiracy theories concerning the pharmeceutical industry. I am not completely convinced by the industry myself but I'd rather take a chance on them than my dd getting polio etc.

I just read the MIL thread but I have been meaning to discuss this for ages.

Bollocks to you Limbo. Answer all the other points. Of course you can't.

People should NOT be left to make their own decisions about this, everyone should be vaccinated and it should be compulsory

I do not want my children, unborn child or myself infected because some selfish idiot thinks they know all the facts!

URGH

And I posted that study you numpty. Because I'm interested in all sides of the argument. Unlike you, who wouldn't recognise reasoned discourse if it bit you on the arse.

I haven't had a chance to read it yet - will try later when children are in bed! I wonder was it specifically MMR or any measles containing vaccine (ie singles) because my friend's son has asthma and his paediatrician told them to give him the single measles vaccine not the MMR.

Not a very well thought out position Cherry.

Bubbly, it's a very clear study. It just talks about MMR.

Oh bt you're rght -- it doesn't talk about any other vax teh children hve hd, or whether the children are previously atopic.

I agree MummyCherry. There should be no exceptions other than medical grounds decided by qualified doctors.

I hear some schools and other community services are considering not admitting children until they are up-to-date on their immunisations. This makes sense, as if the school has any vulnerable pupils they are being put at risk by the irresponsible.

Although its nice of the gov to allow parents to make up their own minds. But it means parents have to take time out of their busy lives to investigate and analyse all this complex scientific information, as we are doing here.

MummyCherry - if you've gone along and had your jabs you, your children and your unborn child have nothing to fear do you?

Llifeinlimbo - that's rubbish. It's unenforceable in this country and schools don't even ask about vaccine status.

I went and spoke to my dds school when a child in a different year began chemotherapy.

I was quite prepared to take whatever steps both the school and the girls family felt were appropriate to ensure that dds did not constitute any potential risk.

The school, the girls parents, her gp and her consultant all assured me that as long as dd was kept at home if she showed signs of illness, she was no more risk that any of the other children.

So keeping unvaccinated children out of school would seem to be vindictive behaviour rather than a medical step.

But the ' I hope your dcs get something terrible and then you will feel awful and it will serve you right' seems to be a high point amongst some who want my healthy child held down and jabbed against my informed opinion

pag, there's not a lot of point

they are (mostly) not willing ot speak/write reasonably.

just accept that you, as am I, are a murdering, unthinking callous parent, and it will all be ok.

"There's been a big rise in asthma in Africa since measles vacc was introduced."

Like, where in Africa? You are aware that it isn't one big country and that the demographics, vaccination rates and disease profiles are hardly uniform?

Mimmycherry and lifeinlimbo- you seriously want mandatory vaccination? Would you like to have been orderedto have the swine flu vaccine last year regardless of whether or not you felt it was safe/necessary? Would you like to be ordered to vaccinate your child at birth against hepatitis or forced to vaccinate against chickenpox? You would seriously want all your ability to make decisions for your children to be taken out of your hands? Not just for current vaccines but for ANY vaccine that the government decided to introduce. Seriously?

[sigh]

I perfectly accept that some people believe vaccination to be totally benign. I can understand this who are frustrated at my current inability to agree. ( I did agree of course, before ds2 and the whole vaccination damage scenario). I have had very reasonable, sensible and feisty conversations with people who hold the opposite views to me

but I never understand the way people really gleefully talk about forcing parents to inject their children knowing that some of those they are 'talking/posting to have severly disabled children and don't vaccinate because if that tragedy.

Given the storm of support for riven and the demands for more carers support I wonder how many posting there are some of those sneering and goading here. Riv can't vaccinate either.

bu there's the rub, pagwatch.

we, as so-called anti-vaxxers, are happy to accept that not everyone has the same view on this as us. (thankfully, actually)

but we are not afforded the same courtesy.

or, if we are, it is grudgingly. in a "hmm, yes, I'm not saying oyu are lying about your child, not really, but, despite that, and despite agreeing that maybe there are some reasons for not vaccinating, I still think that parents are irresponsible if they don't vaccinate"

or, to put it bluntly, "vaccinate. I am right, end of"

It is just so unbelievably rude. As I said previously my DS was permanently damaged by being vaccinated - he went blind on the day of his 3 month jab. And you think I should be forced to vaccinate him and all my other children?

Breathtakingly rude, thoughtless and hurtful I'm glad I don't know you in real life.

This came at the right time, I had a home visit from my wonderful HV today.

I have decided for the individual jabs for the MMR. Sadly I can't get the MUMPS jab anymore...so it looks like my ds will have Measles and Rubella separately, and until they come up with something else, that's all I can do.

The fact there's a mere SUGGESTION of risk is enough to put me off.

Vaccinate, or don't its the parents' choice, and no ones' place to "force it". Get over yourself, if you're that concerned, immunise your own kids and leave the parents who don't alone!

I said I had bowed out before because I knew that the thread would deteriorate into a bun fight,

I just wondered what you thought of the following article
www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=cmv-vaccine-shows-promise-2009-03-18

Apparently 80000 American babies are born damaged by the virus. Some children are profoundly and multiply disabled.

Obviously the mums have not caught the "wild" virus in time to be immune to infection.

What do you think?

"mito -- you all have this belief. That every single one of them is absolutely wrong"

No, you are putting words in my mouth too. I am not denying that some children have been damaged by vaccines. I accept that with some medical conditions it isn't recommended. I do not agree with Cherry's position that it should be compulsory - if you look back to near the very beginning I support people's right to choose, even if I don't agree with their reasons. You could say you don't want to vaccinate because the little green men told you not to - still your choice.

I do think that people who have made that choice need to take responsibility and be aware that their children could pose a risk to others - as in the case of Pag speaking to the school above.

I maintain that there is no scientific evidence proving a causal link between MMR and autism.

Media reporting has also been completely irresponsible - as LadyManor above has said - just the "suggestion" of risk has been enough to put her off.

Catrinm - from a brief skim of that article I think they need to do a bit more research on that one!
The vaccine group had 8% infection compared with 14% in non-vaccinated, and the study was too small to see if the infected vaccinated mothers had passed the virus on.

No, i am not. I am afraid you can't sit on the fence. "No link" means not a single case of regressive autism, not a single case of asd-gut response, not one single parent or doctor or consultant is telling the truth about the relationship between the child's condition and the vaccine. You can't say Yes but no but. You have to believe every single one is wrong.

It's this woolly thinking that's led people to be so credulous.

LookToWindward - I took you seriously, and took the time to write the post below. Now, please, reciprocate and point out exact where I was "incorrect" in my "assumptions":

Add message | Report | Message poster  CoteDAzur Tue 18-Jan-11 14:32:32

LookToWindward - re "After twenty five pages of posts there hasn't been a single reference to anything that would support the claims of those arguing against vaccination. Nothing."

How about facts and logic?

1. Safety of some vaccines is debated (ex: Hepatitis B)
2. Lifelong immunity from having a disease is better than temporary immunity from a vaccine

Therefore, refusing vaccine and letting child have a disease is preferable when:

1. The disease is not terribly dangerous (ex: rubella - very mild in childhood)
2. Perceived risk of vaccine is unjustified by probability of catching disease (ex: Hep B)

Conclusion:

1. Refuse Hep B & MMR (give Measles single vaccine)
2. Test DS for mumps immunity at age 7-8. Give mumps vaccine if not immune.
3. Test DD for mumps & rubella immunity at age 16-17. Give vaccines if not immune.

If you can find anything illogical, ill-informed, "six-day-creationist" in the above, do say what and why.

I see this is still rumbling on and I see Appletrees does not understand what evidence actually means - even though she can seemingly reference an article she doesn't agree with she can't take time out to reference some of this supposedly huge amount of evidence that's out indicating a casual link between a vaccine and some form on harm - be that ASD or what have you. No evidence.

A couple of points.

1. I'm not the poster who made the darwin / gene pool reference earlier.

1. I'm sure many parents are cautious about vaccination. Discussing that and coming to an agreement with a health professional about what's best for you and your family - grand. If the vaccine documentation indicates that your child isn't suitable for that vaccination then again grand - that's what the immunisation programme is for - to protect those who can't be immunised. Deciding not to have the vaccination because around the same time as being vaccinated your neighbours / friends / etc child is diagnosed with ASD at around the same time? Well, understandable as is human nature but not particularly rational and the wrong thing to do. Deciding not to have any / a vaccination because of what you've read on the internet / daily mail and against the wishes of your health professional? Now that's stupid and irresponsible. We even had one idiot earlier asking for a book of anti vaccination arguments - presumably because she had made up her mind and just wanted to feel better about her position. Parents do not know what's best for their own child. Sorry - but they don't.

1. As a liberal I don't believe we should force vaccination on anyone. However taking part in a vaccination programme is a public good and I would argue a civic duty - no different to paying your taxes. I do think that if a parent refuses to have their child vaccinated (and by that I mean against the advice of their healthcare professional) then they should not be entitled to use public resources - education / health care etc. Yes, it is a choice, but it's selfish and irresponsible one and you shouldn't expect to be allowed to use the resources society has to offer if you won't contribute to that.

1. Anecdote is not evidence. My good neighbour has had four cars written off in the last two years. They were all red and had all recently been serviced at a local garage. Does that mean there's a link between red cars and serious car accidents? Does that mean that if you get your car serviced at this local garage then you're going to have an accident? Or was she just unlucky?

1. I'm genuinely curious about vaccination and the evidence around it. That's why I've been posting on this thread. I've been reading round the vaccination stuff for a while and there has been an awful lot of research in to casual links between vaccination and child hood illness. None of it has supported the idea that vaccination causes any kind of harm. Nothing. People keep saying that there is but refusing to reference it. In the face of all these studies, all these papers and all these people who have spent such a large amount of time trying to find a link and failing, why should I take the (at times) ranting diatribe from an anonymous internet loony? Seriously, I want to read this stuff that people keep talking about. Vaccination as a science has been going on for the two hundred years with demonstrated results - just look at Smallpox. If there is indeed a problem with the science as discipline and we are as a society going down the wrong path I want to know about it.

Now I'm sure Appletwees will be on a moment calling me all kinds of names but the fact remains - the claim that vaccination is a risky choice and has a link to all kinds of nasty things is a serious one and one that needs more than a few unreferenced forum posts to support. There is no sign of this support - despite thirty plus pages of asking.