What on earth is wrong with vaccinating children ffs?

[poshsinglemum]

I'm sure this has been done before a million times.

A friend of mine who has gone all woo recently isn't vaccinating her dd because some quack gave a lecture on the evils of vaccinating. My ex boyfriends mum was a complete quack/chrystal healer and begged me not to vaccinate against typhoid, encaphalitus, rabies etc when I went to the third world. She gave me a homeopathic kit. Needless to say I got the jabs anyway.

I think that the ''evidence'' not to vaccinate is coming from the woo crew and is fuelled by paranoid conspiracy theories concerning the pharmeceutical industry. I am not completely convinced by the industry myself but I'd rather take a chance on them than my dd getting polio etc.

I just read the MIL thread but I have been meaning to discuss this for ages.

blimey, i think I've heard it all now.

you would vaccinate your children against chicken pox, so that you can enjoy holida time with them, and thereby push chicke pox into the older generation - who can all catch it when thei vaccine has worn off?

well, i suppose at least if children catch it when they are adults, their parents won't have ot sacrifice holiday time to nurse them

beggars belief, tbh.

Actually, my children are very lucky in that they are vaccinated against CP but living in a society that largely isn't. They're getting natural boosters all the time in the same way that someone who has had CP does. The problem of shingles is in countries where all children are vaccinated and they need to give boosters to keep immunity up.

I should add, I'm delighted that my children haven't/won't have to go through CP. I've seen my friends' children covered head to toe with spots, being taken to A&E because spots got infected, crying all night with the itching. My friends have since said that they'd have taken the CP vaccine.

BTW, Australia, Canada, Israel, USA, Japan all routinely immunize children against chicken pox.

If 'you've heard it all now' because I'm going to immunise my kids against CP, I suggest you get out a bit more and see what other countries are doing.

Lucky for us (apart from cost!) that they don't here - my children get the best of both worlds :)

stata: I have not "heard it all" because there is a chicken pox vaccine available that parents use.

I have heard it all because a parent s deciding to use it, so that they don't have to nurse their child when ill instead of going on holiday. not really the best reason to have a vaccine, imo - so that you don't miss put on a holiday.

a spectacularly selfish view, imo, and one whch ultimately will not be good for the general population, or indeed your children.

but hey, just my opinion.

Why not good for my children? Excellent for my children actually!

Thanks to you and your unvaccinated children, my children are both immunised and receiving boosters! It's great.

not for chicken pox, they'renot -

my 2 are naturally immune, having narrowly escaped isolation wards when they came down with it in the States...

"Look, science is always changing." Why so it is just look at all the pharmaceutical products which had to be withdraw despite aparently rigorous testing procedures and despite the efforts of amanufacturers to deny, deny, deny. Just before they caved.

"However, the best evidence available at the moment (when you look at ALL the evidence and critically appraise it for quality such as in a Cochrane review) is that all the childhood vaccines are safer than the disease that they vaccinate against."

Firstly, the Cochrane review as you no doubt know said that MMR research was inadequate. Secondly, you are falling victim to the woolly thinking that pervades your side of the arguent. I'm afraid you believe the case is proved. And if the case is proved, you are not talking about weight of evidence, you are talking about proof. Now, you don't have proof. You have enough evidence to decide, well I'll vaccinate my children. Fair enough. But you don't have the proof which would allow you the scorn, name-calling (charlatan? really?) and accusations of lying that you've posted very unpleasantly on this thread.

"Just think about the stats. Measles has - at best and most conservatively in developed countries - a case fatality rate of 1/10,000. Say all the 750,000 or so babies are exposed to measles, you'd have AT LEAST 75 children dying of measles annually in the UK. Plus many more left brain damaged, blind, deaf etc. How many children have died from the MMR vaccine?"

Who knows? They are not counted. How many are damaged by MMR? Who knows? They are not counted. Vitamin A is used extensively in the Third World to ameliorate BOTH the mortality AND morbidity of measles, as it's depletedk by the illness. 75 deaths of babies? Now that's what I call scare-mongering.

"But childhood vaccines are one of the most studied and safest interventions. To imply otherwise is simply medical denialism."

The denialism is all on your side of the argument.

"And if similar shit hadn't blown up in Nigeria over polio, we'd have eliminated polio from the world. How frustrating!!! How many children have needlessly died because of this???"

Rubbish. Elimination is impossible while OPV vaccine is given in slum areas leading to virus shedding in diarrhoea in situations of zero santiation. Multiple immunisations do not give protection. Find the cases tracked from Nigeria to Delhi and Afghanistan. Polio immunisation a known factor in developing the illness.

Stata - the chickenpox vaccine lasts approximately 10 years and then you need boosters. I'm not so sure your children will thank you for it when they're older and catch chickenpox and are more seriously ill with it and have to take time of their own work and miss holiday time with their own children but hey ho - just think about yourself for now and let them worry about that in the future.

"If you did have an autistic child, there is zero evidence that it has anything to do with any vaccines you've given."

Absolutely not true, without a shadow of a doubt.

Truly irresponsible parenting, to give your children serious medication to suit your holiday plans. That's unbelievably selfish.

appletrees

wakefield was struck off by the GMC and the editorial of the BMJ was scathing of his fraudulent behaviour.

You can jump up and down, scream and shout as much as you like but that won't persuade me that the GMC or the BMJ are wrong. This behaviour with false idols fits in perfectly with medical denialism

You can twist my words about the CP vaccine as much as you like. It's quite funny really. Truly irresponsible parenting to give your children a CP vaccine,

My children probably won't need a booster as they're constantly exposed to the CP virus - and I acknowledge my debt of gratitude to all those unvaccinated children who are exposing my vaccinated children to the virus - but if they do, then I'll give it to them.

Risk from CP vaccine is minimal, if at all (consiering that CP itself does have some risk, albeit very small).

As I said, I took a risk taking my children on holiday. I drove 200 miles for a week's holiday by the sea. Was that irresponsible? No.

Giving the CP vaccine has far less risk to my children's wellbeing, if at all, than driving 200 miles on the motorway and, if, by doing so I have saved my children from an unpleasant 2 weeks, then I'm happy with that.

Are all Japanese, Australian, Israeli, American (and probably many more) parents irresponsible? No, of course they're not.

If you lot weren't serious, it'd be funny.

Nice that you accept all my points. Excellent.

Or you can address them individually any time you like.

I think we should all remember, for the third of fourth time time on this thread, that the chair of the GMC trial had shares in GSK: that Wakefield has given a very robust and cogent response to accusations of fraud, and that Richard Horton has been caught out for being economical with the actuality on this case.

Er, not screaming and shouting, no need to. You are obsessed with denial. You need to be. There's no other way for you, because your arguments and evidence are so deeply flawed.

See,that's all you have. Poking fun. You just can't follow a reasoned train of thought so you fall back on that.

"Rubbish. Elimination is impossible while OPV vaccine is given in slum areas leading to virus shedding in diarrhoea in situations of zero santiation. Multiple immunisations do not give protection. Find the cases tracked from Nigeria to Delhi and Afghanistan. Polio immunisation a known factor in developing the illness."

All the outbreaks following the one in Northen Nigeria have been genetically linked to that one.

We were on course to eradication. The northern Nigerian outbreak set us back. Countless children have died because it.

This is actually unbelievable. You cannot possibly be arguing against polio immunisation in developing countries....Mbeki and AIDS all over again, but thank goodness you don't make policy.

Appletrees

I haven't see a reasoned train of thought. Of course people will poke fun if you make ridiculous statements.

I have full confidence in the GMC and the editors of the BMJ. Wakefield obviously presented his case to them. They didn't buy it. Good enough for me.

I highly doubt that. Link please.

Perhaps you'd like to have the conversation with a senior pharma regional head that I had about OPV virus shedding in slums.

"I haven't seen a reasoned train of thought."

Denialism.

"I have full confidence in the GMC and the editors of the BMJ."

Denialism.

Look at the WHO's polio eradication campaign.

There's good reason that Gates invest in vaccines as one of the most cost-effective measures of saving lives. As do you, as a British taxpayer, though DFID.

Stata:

"My children probably won't need a booster as they're constantly exposed to the CP virus - and I acknowledge my debt of gratitude to all those unvaccinated children who are exposing my vaccinated children to the virus - but if they do, then I'll give it to them. "

I actually find it quite worrying that you think because you have vaccinated them your children are protected indefinitely. Firstly, the vaccine may not have worked at all. Secondly, you have no idea how long it will last (you think for life ) so when exactly would you give a booster? What happens if your daughter's immunity is gone when she is pregnant and chickenpox harms or even kills her baby- your grandchild? I'm not so sure you would find it funny then but like I said, you do what is best for you and let your children worry about the consequences when they are older.

LOL, do you even know what medical denialism is???

Address my points Stata.

bubbleymummy

it's OK, don't worry. I shall follow closely what happens in the many countries that do vaccinate against chicken pox.

no need to be concerned - and no evidence that you need to be either.

Did you make any apple?

Stata, are you denying that the opv actually causes polio outbreaks? There was a reason why we are using the ipv now you know. Opv is cheaper though so developing countries are still using it.

MMR research inadequate, as assessed by the body you quoted.

Vaccine financial interests with the leader of the GMC trial.

OPV shedding in slums.

Absolute failure of proof despite claims accompanied by scorn, abuse, accusations o imbecility, murder etc etc. An absolute faiure of proof. accompaised by a comprehensive failure to understand why that matters, lol)