... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

And neicie I do think it's lucky to meet somebody who is prepared to take risks with you and encourage you to be all you can be. Lots of people on mn seem to see it as a "right" - but I just don't see it every day in RL.

It's your attitude that counts, isn't it. If you are not aware of how well-off you are compared to others, you are living in a bubble. If you are aware, and you acknowledge that fact, then whatever your income you are living in the 'real world'. I think there are all sorts here on MN and I think that is the joy of it. Reading comments which demonstrate the delusions of the writer, whatever the delusion may be, is always interesting and entertaining, even if it can sometimes make you , or !
I like it when people acknowledge their good fortune when they talk about things associated with being relatively well-off, even when they have worked really hard. We do work hard, but we have also been particularly lucky with property, which just comes down to timing and our age really. Others have been really unlucky on that front and do struggle even with much higher incomes than us. We are still well-under 70k a year, even if our pensions are sorted!

Yep Melez, exactly.

Now if you want cash you go into architectural lighting or development (DH is already immersed in retail so sorted), but tehy treat that like a hiuge underdog: good amrketable skills such as CAD and WYSIWYG taught in year one and enver touched again.

Completely arse about tit course design but a few lecturers trying to shape teh students to aspire to their own career paths (in an industry moving at a rate of knots) as opposed to sending them off skilled in future technology and skills

I can't imagine what it must be like to earn (only) £70k a year.

C'mon, lighten up...some people sound very envious, which is an unpleasant quality all too prevalent on MN.

If it's not too late to return to the OP...I have seen both sides of this, having grown up in a relatively low-income, struggling to make ends meet kind of house, and now living in a £70k plus household. I don't - most of the time - feel all that affluent. Although obviously (before you shout at me) I know I am, and when I stop and think about it, I certainly count my blessings. I think the reason a lot of people on £70k plus think they have no money is that they spend a lot on small extravagances, which don't even seem like extravagances to them. Indeed, I have to remind myself that they are. Here are some of the things I regularly do, that feel 'normal' but that my parents never did:

Going out for coffee
Going on holiday more than once a year
Going out for meals - I can literally count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we ate out in my childhood
Owning 2 cars
Spending on days out/activities for the DCs when it's not a special occasion
Buying new mugs/sofas/ clothes because the old ones are not absolutely worn out but are a bit chipped/worn/unfashionable
Buying sandwiches rather than taking a packed lunch
Buying books rather than going to the library

I could go on and on. My mum used to make us get off the bus a stop early and walk the rest of the way to save 2p. Not even beginning to dream of doing that doesn't feel like affluence, but it really, really is.

but the thrust of the current direction of education makes this really difficult...good courses shut down, and courses that have in the past provided a resilient mind-set being forced into something that can have an economic marketing point - for now.

Affluence and poverty are relative concepts.

agree with poster that said lots of money equalzs hard work, my bro works as a city banker, shit loads of cash but only sees his kids at weekends, fuck that for a game of soldiers!

Hear hear dotty2. And I do a lot of those things (not all!) and think how lucky I am and how much times have changed!

Porca I think (for almost all- a few inherit etc)

lots of money = hard work

but

hard work does not = lots of money

and not everyone has the same chances whether we like it or not. If ds1 achieves financial independence with ASD it's as big an achievement as anything.

What irks me I guess is that over and above the level of financial independence (which I agree is so important) there seems to be so much focus on earnings. It's one thing to aim for is all; we just as much need decent nurses and social workers and teahcers in our society even though tehya re paid less and I would admoire anyone doing a good job at that as much as someone doing the required slog to be- as an example of my BIL- adn international trouble shooter.

But yes you have to be realistic: if like sister and BIL you are all about the saab and happy to use hired childare for very long stretches then fine. Good on you for achieving what you want in life. And if that can;t quite make you happy, fair play to that too.

Peachy I couldn't agree more.

And plenty of people are "driven" and "willing to take risks" but find that these just don't come off. When you have a mortgage, at some point the risking has to stop, at least for a bit.

Times haven;t changed for everyone though; of that list

Going out for coffee very rarely now
Going on holiday more than once a year sometimes, camping which we agree is lucky
Going out for meals - I can literally count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we ate out in my childhood I grew up in sevneties- bad food anyway but Special occasions only
Owning 2 cars We do, only becuase DH uses a SMART car as8 no* bus to SNU etc should boys8 go* sick (it's also cheaper to run a multipla plus a SMART than for DH to commute in the bigger car we have elarned: strange but true).
Spending on days out/activities for the DCs when it's not a special occasion nope
Buying new mugs/sofas/ clothes because the old ones are not absolutely worn out but are a bit chipped/worn/unfashionable I wish- we d0on;t even have a working oven or kettle
Buying sandwiches rather than taking a packed lunch DH eats in Student* halls
Buying books rather than going to the library presents only

Dont get me wrong: I am not really complaining but I do find that as someone who has gone way down the income scale it's amazing how much we considered normal has slipped out of our reach. A functioning cooker, kettle, toaster, clothes that fit..... and I presume it's the same for most

peachy you are right, of course. There is room for all sorts. We can't all have or even want the same things.

It's just that for those who do have the luxury of choice, you'd better not whinge about the outcome.

So if you want to be a teacher because it matter to you to make a difference, and you want to see your kids every night, and you want reasonable job security, then great. Just don't whinge that you can't afford a second home in Provence.

Equally, if you want to be an investment banker who earns serious wedge, fine. Just don't whinge that you don't get out of the door each night before eight.

I think I am unusual lol as I knoe few whingers.

Mind my social circle is based about a community hobby (not charitable before annyone assigns me a halo!)- and I think many of us find our fulfilment there, whether we have £0 or £30million (and I know both in my immediate friendship group)

On the flipside yes higher earners may pay more in tax and fund TCS, forces etc but tehe low paid workers are looking after your children all day, cleaning, serving you etc. We are all important to each other and its not just the higher earners supporting us as such.

Peachy a bit shocked that you can't run to a kettle. New ones can be down to a few quid - just seems a bit of a shock as some other things you can afford. Maybe its about different priorities you have - we are lucky in that we can relatively easily decide to change things around but now usually send any good stuff to Freecycle / Charity as we don't really need the money and less hassle than eBaying etc. I think we even have our old kettle in the garage somewhere - can't be doing without a kettle. Had to buy a cheap one when the Gite we had didn't have one (French word is something like Bulwhar).

I am pleased som of you have talked openly about money. Most people dont.

A BBC type would probasbly be banned from mentioning his salary on air. And for yonks some bosses have told individuals not to mention the dosh. (Silence can be written into contracts.)

the take seems yo go from a youngster unemployed getting £60 wkly...then minimum wage at nearly 6 quid an hour...police 24 grand starting...Nurse less than that. Teacher something similar. Doctor. 70-100 grand (Plus?)

I wont insult you be quoting prem footie types cheers "Gabby"

Returning to Riven's DSs (and other mathematically inclined DCs) it might be worth them looking at the Chartered Institute of Insurance Discover Risk website - a bit naff but has some interesting case studies, and might be a good place to start investigating actuarial options.

Insurance (especially the high end London stuff) is in some ways the opposite of fashion/TV/Pixar jobs - it has such a staggeringly dull reputation that they have to pay actual money in order to get decent candidates, and the hours and drudgery are not nearly as soul destroying as banking or law IMO. It's telling that a lot of new entrants to insurance have relatives in the industry, because they know that actually it's a bit of a hidden gem career-wise.

Peachy - I wasn't assuming that everyone could afford to do those kinds of things, by any means. Just saying that to most people who can, they don't feel like luxuries, even though they are. Which is why you get the 'we earn £70k but are struggling' brigade.

i couldn't in a month of sundays be an entrepeneur.

I need to know that I have x amount in the bank every month.

DP is self employed and couldn't imagine being on a salary.

It works, as I earn enough to balance the peaks and troughs of his earnings, but if both of us were self eomplyed I wouldn't sleep at night.

gabby you do make me laugh with your stream of consciousness posts. I sometimes think you have smoked a doobie.

shame those are the things I want to find out about - otherwise we can't give a full picture to DCs.

Make sure children haev an idea of what certain career paths mean. I borrowed - What people earn from the library as a teenager. Anyone can do that.

I do indeed "move and morph" as suggested above and I have broad range of things I do so I spread risk and I also take risks that others don?t take and I often fail but just carry on.

My children are older than most people on here, at least the older ones, 3 are early 20s so they have a lot of friends who are or have been choosing careers. A lot of chidlren seem to do what their parents do. If I think of people I've met in the last week 4 have children do the same stuff - one at the BBC, one son gone into IT etc and that's because I suppose children understand what their parents are doing but that's not really the right basis to pick something.

Also do explain to children what is good pay and what isn't. Some will say you get at BMW with that virtualyl minimum wage estate agency job so it must be a great job or my friend gets free clothes because she works on that magazine so it must be well paid as you get free clothes or I remember the girls being interested in being grooms until they went back to their lodgings and learned what they earned and how they could never afford to buy a horse of their own etc. Then if they want to make an informed choice to pick a low paid career that's fine and we mustn't forget that 4 in 5 women live off male earnings and men earn more so plenty of women still earn money by in effect providing sex and domestic services not that I'm recommending that but I am sure my teacher husband would not have nearly £1m if he hadn't hooked up with me. Getting a lot of money by marrying well has always been for some an easier ride than working hard (not that he doesn't work hard, he works very hard).

Who defines the real world? And what happened to money not being the root of happiness. We don't earn anywhere near the £70k mark that seems to have been chosen here to mark affluence (although admittedly if I hadn't chosen to go part time after having a baby we'd only be £10k off that). I am really aware that we are fortunate (not just in terms of being comfortably off, but also in having a close and supportive family etc., our health), and do realise that a lot of people are much worse off.

I do however feel that it's quite short-sighted to label people as "living in a bubble" if they don't have to worry about money first and foremost. "Real life" consists of more than money, and there are also other things in life that are important, and "real".

Very true. Real life is death and relationships and host of things which are not a lot to do with money.