... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

I remember LitChick had a thread about the role of luck in success that was quite interesting.

LC it's a funny mixture of pride and envy, isn't it? - in your examples, pride that you are making a difference vs envy that you don't have the second home; or pride that you earn shedloads vs envy that other people get more spare time.

Anyone read The Spirit Level? Study poses the question that it's not the amount that people earn that is the problem but the gap. As someone said further up the thread, it's all relative. But the book questions what the gap does to numerous health indicators in a number of countries, comparatively. I found it interesting.

For me the difference is long term financial struggle vs temporary hard times, e.g.

• Someone earning £70k can certainly meet hard times that mean they genuinely struggle to pay their bills (lost job, interest rates shoot up, divorce, illness etc). Yes they may lose their house and lifestyle as a result and this is hideous for any family, but the impact is likely to be temporary as they probably have the skills and experience to, at some point, earn £70k again in the not too distant future.

• Someone earning £9k a year may genuinely struggle to pay their bills full stop. And it's probably a long haul to get themselves out of that situation through re-training, saving, getting support for life circumstances such as caring.

Both are genuine struggles.

What I don't really buy is higher earners who say they are struggling financially to pay for day to day living. Unless you are on the breadline, your spending habits and financial commitments are by choice. Yes they may be difficult to downsize quickly (e.g. big mortgage, debt payments etc) but then if you don't have a contingency plan for unforeseen circumstances you are a fool.

Before I get jumped on I should declare my own position:

• Household income is above the £70k golden sum being discussed here
• London homeowners in an undesirable postcode
• One expensive car
• One DC, another due in 4 weeks
• Husband is employed, I am self-employed. We are both very driven in our careers and creative in finding ways to generate more income.
• We employ a nanny and a cleaner to enable us to do this
• We have never, yet, needed or wanted to claim benefits or tax credits of any kind
• We are not 'comfortably off' in that we don't have huge amounts of savings and we do have a vast mortgage but we are 'comfortable' in that we have food on the table, a home and are able to afford a few trappings of luxury (iphone, one Cornish holiday a year, coffee out, the odd take away and nice restaurant meal for special occasions. I can even buy toiletries in Keihls and shoes in Selfridges if I save up). This is our choice and I feel lucky to be able to make these choices. We can downsize if we have to - sell car/house, quit gym membership, grow own veg instead of Waitrose/veg box etc.

I conclude that I, personally, would be an idiot to say we are struggling. But there are plenty of times our lives would be easier if we had more cash. We'd have a bathroom that didn't leak for example...

Some people are optimists. I've been waking up recently feeling so happy to be warm which is weird and I'm laughing as I type it but I do feel incredibly fortunate in so many ways and that of itself is probably more important than the physical environment (I don't play relative poverty games but I'm very content with my 25 year old bed and 11 year old bed sheets etc)

I am an eternal pessimist usually 'ooh we're all doomed'. I don't ever want to go back to being skint and not being able to afford bread etc.

So i am utterly motivated by money. I move jobs regularly to get a higher salary. One day i am sure I will hit a salary wall above which i will not be able to climb, and then settle.

DP luckily sees the positive side of everything, so is a good balance.

crazycatlady - it is a very rare person indeed who couldn't think what to do if they had just a little more cash.

In a sense I think that aspiration is necessary though. The human race wouldn't be where it was today if we hadn't aspire to better ourselves. We would all still be living in caves!

Gabbylogon - I wish people were more open about money too. It is the need most of us feel to be discrete that allows inequality to thrive. You can't challenge unfair pay if you don't know you are being treated unfairly because you don't know others earn more than you.

The problem is that there is always somebody who makes you feel guilty if you have more than them or makes you feel inadequate if you earn less as this thread shows, well in the beginning anyway.

The plans to require people to disclose pay and to ban clauses in employment contracts which stop employees disclosing pay were withdrawn. However the Equality Act 2010 does say that if you want to know a colleagues' pay for sex comparison purposes you must be free to find it out.

I have never on MN I think said what I do and I certainly wouldn't say what I earn but it's a good long while since it was £70k. had it been much less then we woudl have much less debt because the children's father on the divorce would not have entitled to have so much.

Xenia - I am sure you have said what you do - I know what you do (I think) and I can't have found it out by accident. Maybe I have made assumption based on what you have done in the past.

You've never said what you earn though - the mind boggles.

Anyway, I suppose the new act is a compromise but you have to suspicions to go as far as to ask for the info, it isn't completely transparent. And people will wonder what others think of them if they ask. You might be thought of as looking for trouble.

SDD it's simple

This is the quiet time for DH's business: post Christmas slump; by March we can afford camping, kettle, cooker repair...car not optional what with schools being ten miles away and living in a Welsh village and just ahd to do brake discs which didn;t help LOL......

Priorities; we're using the camping one which should be fine except I have a terrible memory adn keep forgetting it.

DH's work is ATM a bit seasonal; we could technically up our take now but it would mean not buying in stock (we do some second hand) when it's cheap (if we can;t sell much neitehr can others- adn whilst we will wait many others don;t IYSWIM) to sell on when the full store launches

It's about having an eye on the longer term I guess: camping kettle now, will = camping trip and business growth later on.

I have never been paid very much; even when young. But I have survived.

I never did credit; and I paid off the little cave I bought very quickly long ago.

I did not have kids; so I am not suggesting everyone shhould live like me.

It seems to me that many families must be going through great financial struggle..

But there are people who do well; even out of a recession. some bar stewards coining it.

you will notice how careful I am about swearing. My wiffe said I should never have bought that James Blunt CD...(Think thats what she said.) cheers "Gabby"

I know what Xenia does (and even what she looks like) but only because other people have outed her a few times over the years (and I was one of the ones reporting the image mwhen I realised what it was- had expected a jokey cartoon of a capitalist or somesuch).

I suspect that's how it all reached the MN subconscouos; I cannot recall her saying as such.

Feeling happy and passionate about what you have to do all day is so important. I just couldn't summon up the necessary level of enthusiasm about accountancy.

I did do something where I was paid a lot, but there's that ol' transaction you make every morning. God how much do they have to pay me to do this?? And turns out for some jobs it's quite a lot!

'Some people are optimists. I've been waking up recently feeling so happy to be warm which is weird and I'm laughing as I type it but I do feel incredibly fortunate in so many ways and that of itself is probably more important than the physical environment (I don't play relative poverty games but I'm very content with my 25 year old bed and 11 year old bed sheets etc)

People on my FB would probably back me up that I am too LOL except MN seems to make me appear otherwise sometimes which is one of the reasons I frequently vanish from here now, it is frustrating.

SSD I thought of another reason we are so poor: my bloosy university fees, £151 a month for five months a year. A pittance to otehrs, a fortune to us, but well worth it. Again, something that won;t need to be paid after the Spring (and dissertation MA year is less than half the cost). An investment though. I hope.

I think Xenia talked about her early days when she started out on more than one occasion. I assume that she still does the same thing which of course could be wrong.

I completely agree with you Marsha on the motivation/passion thing. I left a very well paid job at a global bank because I hated what the company stood for and had nothing in common with my grey, suited colleagues. I went freelance for a while before setting up my own business. It was a massive risk, with a big mortgage and a DC on the way, and I now earn less than I did, with no employment benefits, but it is so worth it.

I am now in control of my own destiny and it makes getting up in the morning to earn a living far more manageable and rewarding.

Neicie I think there is an associated problem in that some people are angry at pay situations that they perceive to enhance social inequities or simply reward immoral behaviours. When they air their anger they are accused of being envious - whereas actually it isn't the same thing at all.

It's a bit like those threads where someone talks about teachers having long holidays but that they wouldn't do their job. That's envy - and according to your viewpoint, more or less destructive. If people make an argument about the inequity or immorality of teachers' holidays, I think that might come from a position of anger.

Or maybe that's just a crap analogy

DH's uncle had periods of being very well off and periods of being brassic. He was a robber.

I do think women in particular need to do better at asking for more pay and working for themselvse and being able to value themselves properly rather than under selling themselves. Some are absolutely pathetic at getting a market rate for what they do . It' one reason for the pay gap and another is they saddle themselves with dull domesticity and marry sexist men and then enable those men to foist all that is dull and domestic on to female hands.

Not all of course.

But I should get back to earning a crust. As I am one of the poorest posters because my mortgage is over £1m... laughing as I type but it is not always a fun position to be in.

(I think I've never managed not to be outed just about anywhere I've posted but there are a lot of casual readers on sites who don't build up a picture of other posters so it's nicer to keep anonymity)

Riven - your DSs should do straight maths at the best regarded uni they can possibly manage, it leaves lots of options open with regards to career.

My DB did maths at Cambridge, and is working for an investment bank trading carbon-emission futures. He works hard, but not the hideous hours of 'normal' traders. When he has a family he will get to see them, his job is intellectual enough to keep him interested (he is the cleverest person I know) and I am fairly sure that he's on a six-figure salary even though he isn't 30 yet.

Sorry melez: Somewhat inappropriately I had to laugh at your last line then!

I agree that it is the gap between earnings that people struggle with often. I'm not sure I do earnings envy- or much envy really, just too hard work- but for me it's not the fact otehrs can afford X Y and Z above the level of a roof / food etc, so much as the assumption by some people that we are poor purely as a matter of choice (not so much on this thread, wider MN I guess). That's the bit that grates.

What I would really like to ask you, Xenia is if your siblings are as successful as you are- whether your family found the winning "formula" or whether you were a singularly internally driven individual from a young age. I ask because in my family, despite all five attending good universities and all being heavily encouraged by our father to choose career paths that would earn good money, and all having very decent brain power, none of us seems to have any aptitude for making any money at all. We all live relatively comfortably (which is certainly a notch up from our childhood) but none of us achieving our father's ambitions for us. I just wonder whether some families have a better social capital in how to do well.

melezka - I do agree with you but on the other hand, their perceptions can be wrong too and the salary isn't really immoral or unfairly unequal (i.e. the other person gets paid their worth).

It is telling the difference between envy and justifiable anger that is difficult to work out without a mind probe! It is envy I suppose if the person complaining would swap places with the person they are complaining about and anger if they wouldn't dream of doing whatever it was. But you can't always tell.

Well the idea that your financial situation is a matter of pure choice is a marker of personal ideology isn't it. In some ways it's a very seductive idea, especially if you are successful. But I often wonder if it's a bit like that theory that says your own negative attitudes predispose you to cancer: so not only are you ill, but it's really your own fault.

I've had enough life experiences to see that sometimes, no matter how hard you strive, no matter how many great ideas you have, no matter how well things have previously gone, a stroke of bad luck can be debilitating. And sometimes your choice comes down to just how to survive.

x-posts - sure - but it's when all debate is dismissed as envy that I get a bit downhearted.

I can't really speak for them. All of the cousins are at similar fee paying schools so we've not done too badly. We did all follow a profession which was our degrees which was interesting - in other words make the career choice at about 14 when picking then O levels.

I am the oldest which might make me the one, as it often does, who perhaps might earn the most, if indeed I do. But I'm not "rich" except in the sense of having a large family and I've no savings and big debts so I'm certainly not a classic successful person. I know masses of people much better off.
Yes I was fairly concentrated at a oung age on what I wanted which was as much a lot of babies (I deliberately had the first at 22) as with the career as I knew I'd regret not having them if I didn't than anything else. I also wanted to buy an island etc and a few other things but most of all I love the work I do. I suspect people my age who don't need to work or could scale back but carry on do it because they love what they do.

(Riven, as this and other threads show most people who earn more and then suffer some relative financial trouble tend to try to keep the famil in the same home and at the sames chools so I'd rather do that given I will work for the next 30 y ears than move us to a small flat and to state schools in order to save money up at the moment although I'd like to get it below £1m this year and I suppose we're all poised for at least doubling of mortgages soi t's going to be a rocky ride for the next 5 years for many - we're in a borrower's nirvana at the moment and yes I appreciate that every day - interest rates at the level we have have never had it so good etc)