to think men seem to have taken to MN in their droves recently......and I don't like it

[LadyBlaBlah]

Every thread I go on, there are men putting forward their opinion

I have enough of men in RL. AIBU thinking they should bog off to DN or go play the X Box or something?

< de-lurks>

I had never heard of mansplaining until this thread, but it perfectly describes what DH does occasionally (for example he might mansplain about the correct method for cooking dinner when he hasn't cooked for years and I do it everyday).

I don't mind men being on Mumsnet. I liked Truckulents thread on what he has learned since joining.

Which course was that Truck?

A210 Approaching Literature.

Pride and Prejudice, Color Purple, Frankenstein, Othello, Aphra Behn, poems of Emily Dickinson and Charlotte Perkins Gillman. To name a few.

It was a good course, a bit dated now though I think.

What are you doing?

So, cut to the end. Is this "mansplaining" good, because people should have the self confidence to make their opinions known and fight their corner? Or is it bad because we all need to doff our caps and keep schtum when someone else is talking who "may" know better (or at least be able to better spout received wisdom)?

Is the cut and thrust of verbal argument something we should all aim to throw ourselves into, or must we quietly sit waiting to be passed the conch before we can offer an opinion?

I don't think those are the only two options Blue. I like to discuss concepts: I don't like feeling like I have to be on my guard; I don't like feeling that a conversation is a competition; I don't like feeling that "cut and thrust" is a better way of communicating than musing, making observations based on my experience or my reading or how I interpret what I see going on around me, or questioning in a friendly way what other people are saying.

Sometimes I find places to have a conversation that fit into how I like to converse. How I converse may indeed be an aspect of my social conditioning - but I'm not sure I'd consider it inferior to cut-and-thrust.

Absolutely Melezka, but that means that there are different "types" of conversation. Some might require cut and thrust. Some might need to be be directed towards a conclusion, and action. Others might be a free flowing exchange of ideas with no hierarchy or need for resolution. Perhaps the skill comes with identifying which type of conversation you are engaged in and acting appropriately?

Truck, have sent you a PM rather than sidetrack thread with OU talk :)

Yeah, you're right - as things stand of course you're right. In my utopia, though, conversations could be directed and conclusive without having to feel confrontational. I do accept that sometimes I need to take part in a conversational style or arena in which I feel uncomfortable or which doesn't suit me. I just feel lots of conversations in which power balances are displayed - and shift maybe - are not conducted in my preferred style.

And I know I'm not alone in this.

And I would be interested to know why that feels like a failing in me rather than a failing in the way we have constructed the social conventions of conversations.

YABVU, LadyBlaBlah. If there were no men on Mumsnet we would never have experienced their hilarious indignation at the concept of mansplaining.

19.8% smileys when the current EU minimum is 30%

Better get your calculator out again, TiggyD, think it is closer to 1.98% given all this chatter about mansplaining the last few hours (off now, to catch some of the snooker)

I don't think you are taking this subject seriously, NG.

HerBeatitude Sat 15-Jan-11 22:29:14
It sounds suspiciously like it, doesn't it Lenin...

Add message | Report | Message poster LeninGrad Sat 15-Jan-11 22:26:03
What is 'defensive racism', I've never heard of it. Is it where we blame black people for their own oppression, say they have a chip on their shoulder and then wonder why they get annoyed?

Sorry, my page is upside down.

I'm surprised that you sought to imply that I meant something so offensive. Yes, of course black people are totally responsible for having been oppressed for centuries (and I HATE using the but you deserve it for that.)

Actually why am I even explaining this, what you said was so patently ridiculous that it feels like a waste of time.

What I meant by 'defensive racism' was when someone from a minority group assumes for example that all white people are racist or cruel or something similar, because historically black people have been oppressed by some white people.

To assume that I, or you, or anyone white (don't know if you are white but say you are for a moment) hate and wish to oppress black people would be what I term defensive racism. And I think that's what I was blethering on about in a similar vein with feminism.
Not all feminism is like this, but it does appear to contain elements of it - HB you did it earlier, mentioning the 'usual view' or something like that, assuming people in general feel that way - it's not true, some do, some don't.
And feminism often appears to divide women from men in that way...generalising about each half, trying to fight on behalf of all women as though it were all men who oppress.
I dislike that generalisation.

and I do understand that the point of feminism is to equalise and to unite but people have to be so, so careful that that dosn't tip into generalisation and blame and assumption.

That can be extremely divisive. (obviously)

Last post before I head for a day of Dad stuff:

Thinking about feminism etc in relation to my two children.

Of course I want my DD to have the same opportunities as my DS. But I want them both to have more privileges than they have now.

I want them both to be able to go to decent schools, and university without massive debt to me and them, to have flexible working and equal maternity paternity leave and not affect their careers. And equal pay.

I don't want my DD to be equal to my DS but both still be lower down the pecking order than others just because of accident of birth.

Vive le Revolution!

It can sound like that to you if you want it to, but to me it describes something real which I have (rarely) encountered myself.

I object to the suggestion that I am victim-blaming or silencing.

Would you like an example? (and yes, I am talking about individuals, not the system - because the system is not all encompassing)

A girl at my school was black. There were about 3 black people in the entire school. I liked her, she was hilarious, nice, pretty, clever and incisive.

She also hated white people, as a unit. She often spoke of how I had such and such a privilege as I was white...not because I deserved it (and this was things I deserved - a go on the computer as I'd finishd my work early, that sort of thing). She hated the teachers because they were white.
It was a bit irrational and I presume it was the way her parents had taught her to think.

It was really sad. I don't remember any of the kids ever having a go at her for being black, we took her as an individual. The teachers, well, some were bastards but they were bastards to the white (poor, or non-father is heavily involved in the board of governors, or too clever or anything else you can think of) kids.

That was clearly a form of racism to me, but maybe you think it was a good thing? It didn't do her any favours. It prepared her to expect to be oppressed when in fact she was not as oppressed as she might have expected to be.

Does that make sense?

No I'm talking about her prejudice.

Racism to me means prejudice against a race and she had all white people marked out as terrible before she even met them.

How is that helpful or realistic? And her standing was not 'at the bottom of the pile'.

She was not poor, not thick, not disabled - in a good school, (well apart from the idiot teachers) and there was no reason she wouldn't go on to be successful and so on.

You're assuming because she was black that she would be opressed by everyone, as she thought. It's not the case.

I have to go and get dressed as we have people coming round, so will check back later.

I'm not saying it was easy to be in a desperate minority in the school and in this area - it was predominantly white - but having a disability which maybe one other person in the school had made it hard too (for me) but I didn't stand there saying 'you all hate me because I have this disability' because it would have been massively counterproductive. And it was for her.

It bothered me because it assumed I was racist and I wasn't. it made me uncomfortable to have a view which I found distasteful ascribed to me. I did not hold that view. So it upset me.

What system are you talking about?