To think that this settles it for me (Education)

[WashingMachineMum]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12168236

Out of the top 200 schools hitting the target, only 8 were not independant or academically selective schools.

Come September I think it will be worth getting my wallet out for my DD's future.

Cortina how the heck do you know that most private school teachers are better than state. Can you please point us in the direction of evidence?

Most Mumsnetters whose names begin with an "I" are better than those whose names begin with a "C".
I could offer more evidence for that statement than Cortina can for hers that most private school teachers are better than state school teachers.

Cortina, that is a ridiculous post.
FWIW we could afford to send dd's private but decided that the local state education was excellent and she would fair better in the environment they offered.

It is nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with truly weighing up the options!

why do you have to pay? All the grammar schools from this area are on there and you dont pay for them..do you?

Oh for crying out loud.

This is just like the government deciding that there is a new category of parent called "uber parents", and it is an indication of the best parenting. To qualify to be an "uber parent" you must only clothe your children in Boden wear, Clarkes shoes, own a people carrier and a golden retriever dog.

Give it a couple of years, and parents will cotton onto the fact that they are deemed to be better parents of they have these things, so they will try to make sure they have them. Unfortunately, however, the government publishes a list of all current "uber parents" without giving any time for adjustment. Is this fair? Should the qualifying "uber parents" feel pleased or proud?

Looking at this kind of list published on this basis and taking it into account when making massive decisions simply makes you look stupid.

As for "most private school teachers are better", that simply isn't true, and could never be qualified in any meaningful way. The fact is, 'teachers' in private school don't have to be qualified teachers, not do they have to be specialists in their discipline. In my book, that makes it likely that state school teachers are 'better'.

I've experience of both sectors, and sure you get some terrible duffer teachers at private schools, but on balance, broadly speaking, I'd say the teachers were better at private schools.

I suppose it depends on how you define 'better' and how you view a 'better' teacher?

IMO a teacher must ideally be educated to a high standard themselves, that's a prerequisite, before you look at anything else. They should have a firm grip of the basics, good grammar etc. They should also be articulate, intelligent and be able to control a class. Something else that is important, for me anyway, is HUGE enthusiasm for the job, absolute passion and a love for children.

Good private schools have a rigorous selection procedure, the Dragon school in Oxford, for example, even invites teachers to have lunch with the children before they are offered a job. They don't know they are being observed. Those that don't interact well with the children don't get offered a job.

For me the biggest factor in saying private schools are 'better' though refers to the class sizes. My son's teacher simply doesn't know him and what he's capable of, she can't, the class is too large. Mistakes have been made as a result.

My sister has a daughter at a prep, she's one of 15, she's not underestimated she has a dialogue with the teacher and she's listened too. Not that this wouldn't happen at a state school but there are so many other demands on the teacher's time they simply can't know the child as well.

having taught in both, I would just pop this in for Cortina and Pets that some of the teachers at the private school are superb academics who "chalk and talk" get amazing results and are regarded as excellent. At the state, there were less well qualified younger teachers who did all manner of innovative and unusual things in the classroom with kids who could not have sat and been talked at for 50 mins and also got excellent results (for the kids they had in front of them). Swap them over and both lots would probably sink without trace. Independent schools do tend to have less disruption because they are selective (which tends to favour those from an academic background whose parents have, from day 1 instilled discipline in their kids) can more easily expel students (like the one who set fire to someone on a thread from yesterday, she'd be gone in 2 seconds) and the smaller class sizes help also. OP it is all about what is best for your child - my DP was educated his privately, his sister chose the local comp. Both went to uni and have professional careers.

Sorry that should say 'she's listened to' above. :).

'They don't know they are being observed'

Not that bright, then.

Trixie "(which tends to favour those from an academic background whose parents have, from day 1 instilled discipline in their kids)"

I am confused, non academics don't instil discipline then? TBH I think you are generalising there too.

I do take your point that some teachers suit a type of school better than others and I agree that a lot of private teachers would sink at state. I am not convinced this would happen the other way around though. I also am not sure about the whole young teachers in state thing, certainly our local schools seem to have plenty of older teachers and a sprinkling of younger rather than the other way around.

Quite, Goingspare, that did cross my mind too :)

I know the teachers at my son's school wouldn't get a job at a good private school very easily. Most have poor grammar and most emails I receive had spelling mistakes, this suggest to me they don't have a good level of basic education for one thing. Perhaps this shouldn't and doesn't matter? Spoken english is also grammatically incorrect. Again does this matter? To me yes, to others, not really. Friends say there other far more important things to worry about.

Many teachers at our school don't prepare well for parents meeting and lack enthusiasm, a sense of going through the motions etc. If I were paying fees I'd be complaining by this stage but most of the parents say to do so is to expect far too much. This isn't every state school of course.

And let's mention money here while we're at it. Private schools generally pay more, more money usually attracts better candidates. Of course not always for lots of reasons, but broadly speaking it does.

Paying more money doesn't attract better candidates. It attracts candidates who want more money. And who are prepared to put aside their priniciples.
You aren't addressing Loopy's points that private school teachers do not have to have the level of qualifications held by state school teachers. How does that make them better?
I personally would never get a job at a private school because a) I didn't go to one myself, so I'm not their ideal candidate notposhenough and b) I would never apply as I believe in free education for all.

Same here Iggi. I would imagine that, given any kind of 'test' to show how good a teacher you are, I would do very well, but I simply would never apply to work in a private school because I disagree with the principles they uphold.

I've always thought that 'not having the level of qualifications held by state school teachers' is a bit of red herring. People take that you mean any old Tom, Dick or Harry dimwit can rock up at a private school and get a teaching job. I see that as a positive, IMO some of the brightest and best won't necessarily have 'the same level of qualifications held by state school teachers'.

Iggi, I think it's possible to accept the job that pays the most without sacrificing your principles. Not possible if you are ideologically opposed to private schools though.

Anyway, I want some recognition for my "uber parent" analogy above. I enjoyed writing it!

Loads of comps have student panels for teacher selection - that's not a private school idea.

On the whole I'd say that the people on my (very academic university) PGCE who went into the private system did so because they were academic types frankly quite ill-suited to teaching or engaging with children and would have been eaten alive by even very middle class state school classes. I'm sure they're great at teaching A level and absolutely bullied by students lower down the school.

Again though, that's just my experience and not data. The fact that you don't need to be qualified to work in an independent school might give us pause for thought though - it's one thing to know a subject and quite another to teach it.

Does anyone know the proportion of private school teaches who have themselves been to a private school?

teachers

loopy - i thought your uber-parent classification was excellent

Iggi I didn't go to a private school and managed to get a job in one. The vast majority of my colleagues do have a teaching qualification and those that don't are taken on on the understanding that they will do a GTP within a year or two. Part of the interview process is teaching a lesson so we can see how they are in front of a class. Also I haven't put aside my principles because I am not in principle against private education. Also if anyone thinks it is a doss compared to a comp you have no idea of the extra hours that private schools require, usually at a weekend and in the holidays, sports (for most staff, not just PE staff), revision sessions etc. Nor is it part of the ethos to use union pressure to avoid things like cover lessons or lots of meetings which has been the case at some state schools I have worked at.

Pets sorry, I didn't mean non academic parents don't value education I meant you get academic parents who (and it is a generalisation but it exists for a reason) put a lot of emphasis on the importance of school and parents in general who see the point of education and support the school's practices.