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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be shocked 90% of Down's babies are aborted?

575 replies

Strictly · 14/01/2011 09:20

I was jut reading this sorry, yes it's from the DM!

and then did a little Googling and it turns out 91% of people told their baby has DS will have an abortion... Shock

I'm just astounded it's so high. I'm not making a judgment on the idea people might abort, but am very shocked that it seems almost universal to abort if told the baby has Down's.

I wonder what it is about that particular condition that 91% of people feel they could not live with? The rates for abortions of Cerebral Palsy babies for example is nowhere near as high. Is it just that Down's is easy to detect so the majority of people actually get the chance to decide?

OP posts:
fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 10:55
Bear
2shoes · 17/01/2011 12:03

well said fanjo

BuzzLightBeer · 17/01/2011 12:38

again Hmm
if you're trying to make yourself feel better about trampling on other posters, keep clapping each other on the back there.

midori1999 · 17/01/2011 12:47

Yes, of course, it's fine to say people's children have 'tragic lives' or are 'inferior' but it's not OK to have an opinion about those who abort for the same genetic condition. Hmm This thread was about people twrminating because of DS and I stand by everything I have said in regards to those who do.

No-one was referring to situations like Going very sadly found herself in, but she clearly felt upset by the posts and has clearly recently been through a very traumatic experience, which I suspect is why people felt the need to support her and point out they were not referring to her or those like her.

expatinscotland · 17/01/2011 12:53

What midori said. I stand by my opinion regarding terminations for Down's Syndrome.

Keep telling yourself otherwise, Buzz.

BuzzLightBeer · 17/01/2011 12:54

no, what happened above was a lot of people felt quite free to decide why people made such a decision, and to attack it in the abstract. Read the thread "no sympathy for people that choose termination" "people that terminate don't want that baby, they want an ideal one" and so on...until confronted with an actual person in that position whereupon they all fluttered around saying oh not you, real person, so sorry for you.

Two-faced and nasty.

2shoes · 17/01/2011 13:02

oh grow up.
I posted about DS not conditions that are not compatible with life.
and I stand by my posts, I find a lot of what is said on this thread hugely offensive to disabled people.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 13:02

Buzz - I didn't trample on other posters, I said all along I wouldn't judge anyone for the decisions they make.

I just thought you were being a bit obnoxious with your stirring there tbh.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 13:02

Buzz - I didn't trample on other posters, I said all along I wouldn't judge anyone for the decisions they make.

I just thought you were being a bit obnoxious with your stirring there tbh.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 17/01/2011 13:03

I dont think that is an accurate summation at all Buzz.

Its certainly not how I feel about the issue and whatever my feelings about termination for disability I still sympathy for a bereaved mother.

We all have to judge termination for DS in the abstract because it is not happening to us. I refused tests for Downs in my last two preganancies for a reason - I didnt want to be pushed into a decision to terminate if my baby had Downs. I dont now think 'phew that was a lucky escape' and smugly go about my business.

I was willing to accept what every happened. I would say that is putting your money where your mouth is.

My feelings on the subject to not detract from the dreadful trauma and pain suffered by someone in Going's postion. Her child has a condition icompatable with life. This is not the case in the majority of children with Downs and the tests wouldnt show if it were.

I reserve my judgement the society makes Downs a nasty, dirty thing. Something that should be hidden away. We used to do that by shoving people in asylums now we do it by preventing their existance at all. If one of the features of Downs was not dysmorphic features I am sure that it would be more acceptable. The level of LD in many people with Downs is lower than in loads of other conditions. Many children cope very well in mainstream primary. More than could be said for my very 'normal' looking but non Downs affected DS.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 13:03

oops, i felt so strongly about it i posted twice.

2shoes · 17/01/2011 13:03

BuzzLightBeer using someones grief to point score is actually very sic.

midori1999 · 17/01/2011 13:04

Even if that were the case, clearly those who have made nasty, spiteful and, quite frankly, ignorant comments about children with disabilities don't really care less if they upset the parent sof those children.

People have stated their reasons on this thread for choosing to terminate a baby with DS, it is there for all to see and a lot of their assumptions are factually incorrect.

BuzzLightBeer · 17/01/2011 13:07

oh god whatever. yes you are always right and nobody can disagree and I couldn't possibly have been trying to make someone feel better or know anything about anything or have an informed opinion.

Better? Angry

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 13:23

Calm your pants

expatinscotland · 17/01/2011 13:25

What midori, 2shoes and MrsdeVere said.

I agree.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 17/01/2011 13:33

Buzz, you were clearly also trying to make others feel guilty and bad.

Anyway, much as I'd love to bicker all day, I'm off to work.

Soups · 17/01/2011 14:03

goingdownhil so sorry to hear about your loss. I went through the same quite a few years now. Have you heard of Arc? They provide advice for parents whatever their decisions. They have specific email support groups to get details I think you have to email them www.arc-uk.org/ending-a-pregnacy-support/ I found it when i didn't want to call or make an appointment with the breavement midwife but felt like I needed some support from others in the same situation.

wannaBe · 17/01/2011 14:41

So it's ok to cast judgements on the lives of people with disabilities "they're so tragic/no quality of life/not worth living/it's not fair to siblings/will be a burden on their family" shall I go on? Hmm Yet it's not ok to have any opinion on people who terminate a pregnancy where the condition is not incompatible with life that isn't sympathetic and understanding of the fact that they have somehow averted a tradgedy?

I wonder why that is.

Could it be, perhaps, that in many cases, people with severe disabilities often don't have the mental capacity to realise just how negative the world's perception is of them? Or to tell those that think their lives are so tragic that they are wrong? They cannot defend themselves against the alagations levelled at them, therefore it's ok to keep saying these things.

Whereas the woman who terminates a pregnancy because she didn't feel that she could cope with a "down's baby" can tell you how upset she is, how she did it for the child, after all, having down's is a tradgedy, is it not? And how dare anyone question someone's motives when they have lost a child. Even if that loss was of their own choosing.

It's easy to make your opinions known when those you are opinionating about do not have a voice. If they don't defend themselves, then surely that makes you right. Not so easy when that person can argue back.

Buzz you were quite clearly trying to point score off the back of someone's grief. It has been made very clear on this thread, time and time again that no-one was referring to conditions that are incompatible with life, and I imagine that anyone who has read this thread as nothing but sympathy for goingdownhill and others who have been in her position. Nobody has back-tracked, the thread was about down's, a condition that is not incompatible with life,clearly some were upset by it based on decisions they have been forced to make about babies who would not have survived anyway and people have sympathised with them for their loss.

It is entirely possible to sympathise with someone who loses a baby due to a condition that means that baby would not have survived while feeling that someone who terminates based on a condition where the baby not only has a good prognosis, but where there is a chance that baby will grow into an independent adult capable of holding dow a job and living independently of their parents. Even if that certainty is unknown at the time.

It is clearly you, Buzz, who is incapable of distinguishing between the two. And maybe that is a huge part of the problem ? for some, disability equals tradgedy. They cannot see past the disability to the person that is behind it, which is why it's so easy to categorise all disabled life into not worth living and worthy of termination.

BuzzLightBeer · 17/01/2011 14:50

I don't believe thats what I did and I also don't believe its fair to be attacked by a mob for having an opinion, especially when you have not bothered to read my opinion (failing to not that I have rather a lot of experience with disability for a start).
I'm hiding this thread now as I'm quite upset, so please feel free to assasinate me further without me being here.

cestlavielife · 17/01/2011 15:31

i do understand why people make the decision to terminate - and it is their deicsion - but i
have to point you to the fab video here
www.netbuddy.org.uk/ of a sister and her sister who has DS.

Debs75 · 17/01/2011 15:44

So 90% of those who find out their child will have downs syndrome abort said child.

What is the figure for people having the tests?

I have never been tested for DS in any of my 4 pregnancies, neither has my friend in her 5.

It is shocking to think so many people see DS as something that needs aborting but they are entitled to do as they see fit. If they feel the extra strain on the family is too much then they will do what is right for them.

They shouldn't be vilified because they have had to undertake a very heartbreaking decision.

crazycatlady · 17/01/2011 15:58

I've dipped in and out of this thread so apologies if I'm repeating, but there is no black and white line in the sand drawn between a Downs Syndrome diagnosis and a diagnosis that is 'incompatible with life'. It is very possible (I know because I have been there) for the two to go hand in hand.

I would be very interested to know what proportion of that 90% were parents who were given extremely poor prognosis for their baby due to DS-related complications.

My own situation was this:

  • Second pregnancy nuchal scan and bloods given risk of 1:2 for Downs, 1:8 for Turners and 1:24 for Edwards.
  • Nuchal scan also showed huge cystic hygroma, foetal hydrops and major heart malfunction. On this basis we opted for CVS to see if the cause of these was a chromosomal abnormality or something else.
  • I was told that whatever the CVS results my baby had no chance of surviving and I would be lucky to stay pregnant another month let alone go to term. No baby in medical history, given the symptoms and abnormalities identified, had ever survived pregnancy and birth. My own research backed up that fact.
  • CVS showed Downs Syndrome was the cause of our baby's ill health. But we had already made the awful, heart breaking decision to end our baby's life through a termination of pregnancy rather than wait for a late miscarriage. I needed to be able to work and look after our DD, and the physical horror and medical danger of a late miscarriage wasn't something I could face.
  • The medical forms for the termination say 'Down Syndrome' but the real reason we made the decision we did was because of the complications associated with the DS, which were incompatible with life.

It was the worst time of our lives. Genuine raw sadness, desperation and horror. I have also suffered a miscarriage. Cannot say which was 'worse' so I can't see how it's possible for others to judge which is more deserving of sympathy.

It's never black and white.

expatinscotland · 17/01/2011 16:41

Excellent post, wannabe. Very well put.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 17/01/2011 17:17

I am really offended to be referred to as part of a mob. How bloody dare you. We dont even know each other.

Fecking cheek.