To think that some people just won't be happy...

[MrsMooo]

Until there is no welfare state left and those who are on the poverty line, or even less well off are forced to be sterilised because how very DARE they procreate when they can't privately fund their entire childs life...

I do get the feeling there is a certain faction both on MN and IRL who seriously think that the welfare state is a bad thing and that the poor/less well off (ordinary man/woman now) should just be left to fend for themselves. Or maybe we should bring back the workhouse...

Whilst a small minority do spend their CB on vodka redbull and fags, and live in million pound mansions in Soho, surely we WANT a welfare state to look after our old/sick/not independantly wealthyless fortunate

Whist the welfare state and all it entails can be deemed as a socialist notion, surely we want to look after our "big society" regardless of politics?

Or am I mistaken in thinking that the current government are slowly but surely erroding public services and benefits and no-one really gives a stuff

YANBU.

i agree with you. Id love it if someone started a poll on here to see who wanted rif of the welfare state and those who supported it.

but the right wingers would never be honest with their answers anyway=tories never do !!

YANBU

i am so greatful for welfare. DH lost his job a week before DS was born and couldn't get another job for a few months afterwards, despite applying for everything under the sun. That money meant that we could feed, clothe and provide for our son as with all things we hadn't expected the job loss at all, therefore didn't think to save an awful lot.

It does need to be looked at carefully, I don't think its perfect. But i dread to think what would happen if it was eradicated completely.

I agree with the welfare state but not when it is abused and people take it as a life career. Should be there for those in genuine need.

YANBU

I've have never claimed benefits but I reserve the right to if I ever needed to. I don't understand why some people are so mean spirited.

YABU .... Many right wingers support the idea of a welfare state that eliminates poverty rather than one that (as currently happens) creates dependency. The saddest phrase of the last 10 years is 'it's not worth me going out to work'.

Welfare state as a safety net, absolutely.

Welfare state as a life-style choice, no.

YANBU

It is mean spirited.

Some people can't bear others to have something if they can't have it too.

Others are just completely unable to put themselves in others' shoes.

YANBU

It's divide and conquer. Keep us all squabbling amongst ourselves and we won't notice that the rich keep getting richer.

We're all in this together. MY ABSOLUTE ARSE.

YANBU.

I don't think a lot of people even think about it until they realise how much it costs and then feel aggreived. Or until they need it or someone they know needs it.

I think it's down to a lack of empathy - so many think they'll never need it and struggle to understand those that do.

YANBU

But i do agree with chil here: "The saddest phrase of the last 10 years is 'it's not worth me going out to work'." Not that I think many people genuinely beleive that, but that anyone would rather subsist on dribs and drabs of cash rather than earning a decent wage is very sad.

I blame thatcher

I blame Blair

the saddest phase is its not worth me going out to work-well thats because wages are so low. we sold off all our housing stock to private landlords who charge what they want and put up prices. if everything was state owned we wopuldnt have that problem. we could also use the profits from the energy companies we owned to help ease the financial crisis in this country.

Before anyone starts bitching about brown and blair ruining the country, blair was so right wing he could go full circle, he spent all our money on out of date weapons we cannot use without americas permission(great idea that one). He left brown with no money to do anything with anyway.

the thing that i dont understand though is if you are struggling to make ends met why would you have a child or increase your family?
Yes things happen and where you might once have had a job and been self surporting things change and you need to rely on the state for a period of time. But to go on and have another child in these circumstances is madness.

It is the same with people who are struggling with the day to day care of 2 children going on to have a third just because they always wanted 3 children

I have to agree with chill too

And re:choosing to be on benefits/lifestyle choice... that exactly my point, these people are the MINORITY, and surely if we want to get them to make a better choice about what they do with their lives/futures the answer is educate and enable/upskill and raise expecations as to what they are able to acheive off benefits as opposed to taking it away from all as a blanket punishment

WFIW I also agree wholeheartedly with Euphemia, but I really doubt that with the current balance of power/political climate we will see a government, or anyone/anyother body in my lifetime that will make any significant difference to those imbalances

Unfortunatly there is and always be the 'I'm all right Jack' crowd, who judge and tar anyone that claims benefits as work shy scroungers.

We are right to have a state that supports those who need the help, the alternative is to in-humane to contemplate, but there are plenty of examples around - i.e this country prior to the welfare state, other countries that have nothing in place, to demonstrate what happens to a society without a safety net.

Unfortunatly there will always be a section that takes advantage of the system, but what's the alternative??

As a tax payer (and former receiver of benefits when I needed them) I'm happy to support the system.

There but for the grace of god and all that!!

YABNU

YANBU, OP. One of my least favourite phrases is 'I've never claimed a penny in benefits' when used by people bemoaning what others have been given. So you've never needed to claim, then? Why aren't you being thankful for your good luck instead of ranting about somebody else?
This is the kind of smugness that encourages the government to pick on vulnerable groups and vilify them.
Oh, and I blame Thatcher and Blair.

I don't understand that either cantspel. But then again, I was fortunate enough to have parents who have always worked, and were both quite clever, and earned plenty of money, so we had a nice home and I grew up learning by example.

God help you if your family came from a former mining community or steelworks or docks; where once there was abundant work, but now there is NOTHING, and if your parents never worked (because all the jobs went at around the time they left school) and there are still sod all jobs, and anyway, the shitty job you can get is shittily paid and terrible conditions...then yeah, maybe I can get that having kids is another "option"

Maybe we need to turn the argument round - it's not that the Welfare State pay too much, it's that the jobs don't pay enough.

V.good point Norweigian Moon

Cantspel - there are a myriad of reasons why people choose to increase their family size/have a child... Should we make it a simpler for people...

Maybe we should have to apply to have a child in the same way we apply for a mortgage and if you can't afford one you can't have one [Hmm]

Whilst the financial implications are a serious consideration when planning a family/having a child, they should not IMO be the deciding factor

Imagine the following: AIBU to abort my baby because I would need tax credits and CB to cover the nursery fees when I return to work?