To think that some people just won't be happy...

[MrsMooo]

Until there is no welfare state left and those who are on the poverty line, or even less well off are forced to be sterilised because how very DARE they procreate when they can't privately fund their entire childs life...

I do get the feeling there is a certain faction both on MN and IRL who seriously think that the welfare state is a bad thing and that the poor/less well off (ordinary man/woman now) should just be left to fend for themselves. Or maybe we should bring back the workhouse...

Whilst a small minority do spend their CB on vodka redbull and fags, and live in million pound mansions in Soho, surely we WANT a welfare state to look after our old/sick/not independantly wealthyless fortunate

Whist the welfare state and all it entails can be deemed as a socialist notion, surely we want to look after our "big society" regardless of politics?

Or am I mistaken in thinking that the current government are slowly but surely erroding public services and benefits and no-one really gives a stuff

ShirleyKnot that is where you and me are different.
I didn't come from a clever family with plenty of money> My mother was a single parent back in the days where there was still shame in it. She worked hard in any role she could find to provide and teach us that if you want something you have to work for it as no one gives you anything for nothing.

I was taught a shitty job is better than no job,

I am not against the welfare state but it should be a safety net in your hour of need not a lifestyle choice.

But that's not what I'm talking about cantspel.

I'm a single parent and I work - I was on benefits for a short while though - and so my children are learning a work ethic from me, and my parents and their dad, who are their role models. We do not live in a poor area.

My point is (and I think factoring single parenting into this skews things somewhat) that there is a group of people, who live in poor areas (with low employment) who would have once been able to get a job in a factory (for example) but all the factories have fucked off to India or wherever because they can then pay their worker absolutely fuck all (and now my rant is getting complicated) whose parents became disenfranchised from working, and also, if you live in a place where there are few jobs but all your family and friends are there are they all meant to come to London to get a job?

why not move if there is little employment in your area?
I thought the days were long gone where you were born, grew up and lived your life within 1 square mile.

Very few of the people who i grew up with are still living in that area.

Right so everyone leaves the poorer areas and goes into the towns then?

Living on benefits is not easy, I certainly can not afford to drink even if I wanted to. I cannot even afford to own a car which I did when I was working.

I worked for 25 years solid bringing up two children alone from the ages of 7 and 2 respectively, working 12 hour days not claiming anything.

When I needed to claim I did, and still do.

I cannot afford to live the lifestyle I had before and should not be able to because I am not working.

Not everybody abuses the system, albeit some do.

It is not that basic. But i see no reason why if you were in an area of high unemployent you wouldn't consider moving. It is no different than someone wanting to work in a certain industry moving to where the jobs are or someone wanting to go to uni moving to where the couse they want is.

cantspel

Moving costs money. It will cost me at least £1.500 to move.

Then I would have to find somewhere that allowed dogs.

"why not move if there is little employment in your area?"

I really don't understand this argument at all.

In my area, 60% + of the population are retired. The local economy is collapsing because of a vicous circle created when the agricultural industry collapsed (post foot and mouth), only to be replaced by the tourism industry, only now being replaced by retiring people and second home owners.

So, the cost of buying homes has skyrocketed, businesses and industry has moved away or been destroyed and those left are on opposing ends of the wealth spectrum: very rich and retired or young and poor.

so, the young and poor move away do they? to where? to over-populate another area that does not have enough housing or services to accommodate them?

and the cost of living and housing continues to rise in the original location making effectely a rich ghetto and privatising off a whole chunk of a region for the rich only.

what the local economy actually needs is stimulation. the regional development agencies might be loathed by the tories, but here, they were very effective in attracting new businesses and economic opportunities into the region.

there has been a small and positive increase in cottage industries in the region, which is in turn developing these businesses into major employers... therefore attracting people to live and work here, driving down the costs because people won't and can't afford to pay for what some thought they had a monopoly over.

Oh, and the local authorities are prioritising locla people's rights to have first purchase on new property in the area at more reasonable prices.

Regeneration is a far better way forward than over urbanisation and urban sprawl - which is created when too many people move into already crowded areas.

FrequentNutter you are going to hate me for this but if i was struggling financial then the dogs would have to go.

I know that 99% of people would disagree with me but animals are expensive and if i had a limited income i wouldn't be able to justify having them.

It isn't that basic, no. And that's why making sweeping statements just doesn't really work.

Because, the reality of it all is that we will never EVER have 100 percent employment. It will never happen, and banging on (I'm not talking about you personally here cantspel, BTW) about the "deserving poor" and the "lazy scrounging benefit thieves" is just actually bollocks. If we wiped out the benefit system tomorrow, just wiped it completely from existence, we would just have children dying in the streets and people begging for enough money for a meal, because the problem isn't just one of a lack of commitment or a lack of jobs it's about a myriad of problems, including the distribution of jobs around the country, the cost of housing, the rises in travelling costs etc etc etc.

x posted with Crystalline - excellent post!

Relocating isn't such a bad idea and it's been going on for centuries. My miner grandfather left the NE in the thirties in search of work and I left the NW in the eighties for the same reason. The original locations then have fewer people chasing the jobs available, might struggle short-term, but if you add in some regeneration and local enterprise creativity they can become desirable locations again in due course.

If the government succeeds in getting high speed broadband in more areas, for example, then remote working becomes more possible and we could find overcrowded, overpriced cities become less popular

Whereas 'Do nothing and wait for the area to be regenerated' sounds rather defeatist.

It's such a circular argument.

If you've never had a job, because there are no jobs in your area how the hell are you supposed to be able to afford to move?

It's all a bit Norman bloody Tebbit if you ask me. My parents moved from a mining community in the early 70's because my dad was lucky enough to have been born quite clever and to have been able to go to college and study a medical trade and then to get a job in London and move here. I have family who live in the valleys of South Wales and believe me, there are very few opportunities left there for people who can't get a job in Cardiff. Alot of the former mining communities have been completely decimated.

You answered your own question ShirleyKnot. If you're a single man with no job and no family you can - Tebbit style - get on a bike/bus/train and try your luck elswhere. If you're in a rundown community you work your arse off at school so that you can get out of it like your dad did. If tied down like Riven describes maybe you have to stay behind and hope for the best... but that's the last resort, not the default setting.

Good on you ShirleyKnot
Mind you the Brazilians had a very effective
way of eliminating street kids a few years ago.
Can't happen here! Treasure both our NHS and our benefit system and get rid of the "I'm alright Jack" attitude! None of us can foresee
our future as illness or unemployment can effect us all.

Shirley if your own dad could do it why do you think others cant?

but chil it's not:

move away and get a job

OR

stay and claim benefits forever

there's so many gradations of grey in between.

including, as I pointed out above, stay and have the opportunity to develop your own business/employment locally.

this needs seed investment from government, but it's worth it to regenerate communities, develop people's skills and confidence and to encourage diversity of skills/abilities and interests in a geographical region.

I'd far rather have that, than force people to move away or whole towns with no work and social and economic decay.

I live in the sort of area ShirleyKnot describes - former mining/steel region. Now, all those jobs are gone and little to nothing has replaced them. There are jobs for middle class graduates, although mostly in the public sector so, I'm guessing, even they won't be around for long. However, for anyone who would once have gone down the mines or worked in a foundry there is nothing. In the early 00s, a lot of call centres opened and it did seem that the area was at last being revived, but now those jobs have been transferred overseas, so working class people are back on the dole.

I can see why some people might say these people should move to other regions with more jobs, but that's not really practical. For a start they can barely afford to live here, how are they supposed to finance a move to a more expensive place. And secondly, even if they did all up sticks, there wouldn't be enough jobs for all of them so the problems of large scale unemployment would simply be relocated.

Petrol and diesel prices, will effect areas.
Mortgage/rents will increase in cities and towns.

I think the welfare system has made 'victims' of a whole generation.

Some immergrants move thousands of miles to get a job - I admire them so much

Crystylline - I like your point about supporting cottage industries! I think we have to move away from this idea that big, multi-national companies are the answer to these problems, and instead find ways to harness the huge amount of talent which is going to waste. In this area alone there are thousands of former steel workers sitting idle, but they are incredibly skilled, and with help could set up very successful small businesses.

YANBU

A society is measured by how it treats its weakest members - I don't understand how anyone could want to be part of a society that doesn't support the vulnerable. :(

Thatcher robbed us of our industrial base.
Our education system has been going downhill for years (with both parties) and nobody has addressed the new underclass that now exist.