To think that some people just won't be happy...

[MrsMooo]

Until there is no welfare state left and those who are on the poverty line, or even less well off are forced to be sterilised because how very DARE they procreate when they can't privately fund their entire childs life...

I do get the feeling there is a certain faction both on MN and IRL who seriously think that the welfare state is a bad thing and that the poor/less well off (ordinary man/woman now) should just be left to fend for themselves. Or maybe we should bring back the workhouse...

Whilst a small minority do spend their CB on vodka redbull and fags, and live in million pound mansions in Soho, surely we WANT a welfare state to look after our old/sick/not independantly wealthyless fortunate

Whist the welfare state and all it entails can be deemed as a socialist notion, surely we want to look after our "big society" regardless of politics?

Or am I mistaken in thinking that the current government are slowly but surely erroding public services and benefits and no-one really gives a stuff

YABU. Just because someone believes that the welfare state should be less generous to those that are able to work, and that it is too easy to get benefits, does not mean that they think people should be left to starve with no access to healthcare or education.

I believe most people do care.

I believe most people want to support the vulnerable and those in need. That is absolutely what we as a civillised society ought to be doing.

I do however understand the frustrations of those who work for little more than they would receive in benefits. It is scandalous that some people "cannot afford to work".

It is also scandalous that so many fathers have been able to abandon their children financially, leaving the economic care of their children to the state. I simply cannot comprehend how we as a society permit this sort of behaviour.

Of course the key to these issues is raise wages and make it difficult for NRP's not to support their children. But I can understand why it seems easier (especially for the givt/media) to target those in receipt fo benefits.

I also think

It's all well and good talking about working your arse off at school so that you can get out, but what if you're actually not that bright? And why the hell is the onus not on the government (or big businesses through government initiatives) to create opportunities in low job areas, rather than mass migration from small towns to big cities. I mean, seriously, we can't all fit into one place.

I've heard an awful lot about cutting benefits and cutting public service jobs, but not an awful lot about revitalising our manufacturing industries or any other job creation schemes.

lequeen I agree with you there, but I've seen some awful posts on here about people who are already struggling. On one benefits thread there was talk of workhouses. :(

Passionately believe in the welfare state but its become too easy to game the system.

Speak to any tribunal judge who hanfles appeals and I am afraid the reality is its not a handful that abuse the systems, its thousands. Whether its living with someone and not informing someone, working cash in hand etc. Apparently biggest scam is disability living allowance. I am NOT saying we should not support people in fact those who are genuine should get more.
But fit 23 year old blokes suffering from 'depression' where no one has worked for 3 generaions in a family are not just made up in the Daily Mail I'm afraid.

"what if you're actually not that bright?"

Every british child gets 11 years full-time education paid for by the state and every single one should be easily employable at the end. When jobs were created in the boom of the recent past many of them were filled by people from overseas who may not have been as well educated but who were willing to relocate. When industry is revitalised again and more jobs are created the same thing will happen again. Mass migration is a fact of life

I'm not sure you and I live in the same world Chil.

The one I live in isn't quite as black and white and neat and tidy as yours. Which is sad cos yours sounds MUCH better, can I migrate there please?

Poverty was supposed to be eradicated, but it is getting worse. Drink/drugs and social depredation effect all our towns and cities.
Depression and hopelessness are filling our Doctors' surgeries.
The majority of people don't want to claim benefit, just being on a survival existence, and benefit payments provide just that.
Money invested to help solve these problems would save millions in the long run.
Crime would go down, health would improve and people would gain self-respect.

'It is not that basic. But i see no reason why if you were in an area of high unemployent you wouldn't consider moving. It is no different than someone wanting to work in a certain industry moving to where the jobs are or someone wanting to go to uni moving to where the couse they want is.'

With what? Brass buttons? As pointed out, moving costs a lot, particularly for a family. If you're a renter, you have to find a place that will take DSS and kids (because getting hired for an unskilled job when you don't leave in the area already won't happen). You won't be eligible for social housing because you have no connection to the area and became voluntarily homeless.

If you're already unemployed, how on Earth are you supposed to save for moving costs, letting agent fees, deposit and first month's rent on a private let in an area of better employment (more expensive, usually) from benefits money?

Do we really want to go back to the days of mass migration that resulted in dire slums, as in Edinburgh, Glasgow and London?

Anyone see that Jack the Ripper show on Channel 5 last night, where the area of London he operated in was recreated digitally?

It was disgusting, such slums.

agree with Riven - I think absent no paying parents are a major cause of child poverty.

Riven - I am sure you have much better info than me, I was with a bunch of tribunal appeal judges (yes what a thrilling social life I have!) and they were saying that they found DLA appeals shocking and there was a lot of abuse. I might have got the name of the benefit wrong.

I was also suprised to learn from them that drug addiction and alchoholism is treated as a disability, you get benefits for that.

Not sure what the answer is there, its very complicated but I was a bit shocked about that and the whole conversation really. Perhaps they were just a hardened bunch (I would put them very much on the left wing spectrum though)

Shirleyknot "Keep us all squabbling amongst ourselves and we won't notice that the rich keep getting richer" - I couldn't agree more

NOT every person can be 'bright' no matter how much education is thrown at them. My DD has learning difficulties. SHe will be lucky to acheive D's at GCSE level - with a LOT of extra support, and a LOT of hard work on her behalf. I fully expect her to get a job, but the chances of her ever earning more than minimum wage is non-existant.

My DP has learning difficulties and has asd. He holds down a full time job, but given the fact that he attended a 'special school' and left with no qualifications (although he gained catering quals at college), the fact that he earns £16K pa is nothing short of hard graft and a bloody miracle. Espeially when you consider that the wage for a shop manager in my town is £14-£15K.

Why shouldn't he be allowed to have a family, considering how hard he's worked to overcome his problems and hold down a FT job? His wage is very good considering his asd (most people with asd don't work, and he has to have a lot of support from me to continue).

Is it DP's 'fault' that he was born with problems? Is it his 'fault' that he can't get a well-paid job? Is it his 'fault' that he works very hard, in the most well-paid job he can get with the skills and abilities that he has, yet his work is not financially recognised in the way it should be?