Completely insanse waste - Fish Fight

[NigellaPleaseComeDineWithMe]

Haven't seen any other threads on this - its appalling that so much good fish is thrown back dead because of the way the CAP works.

Please sign up here.

When we've been to France there are loads of 'odd' local species of fish that we try but in the larger supermarkets the range is much more limited. No local fishmonger here .

Mmmm - BBQ fish - best when on holiday with lots of sun, cold beer / wine and near a beach....

Still wanting to act on this.

I remember a thread about fish fingers a few months ago on here (what exciting lives we lead). What got me was the number of posters who said 'i always look for cod, only the best for my children'. of course they're not wrong to want good food for their families, but somehow, whether through manufacturers' ads for the last few decades or some other way, cod was sold to us as the only pure, good, reliable fish.

i have read about people who won't eat mackerel because it is a carnivore. I have to say that I am not always in the mood for mackerel, but then nobody is always in the mood for anything.

The solution's very simple.

Just.don't.eat.fish.at.all

I wouldn't want the agony of being lassooed, dragged under water and drowned by a giant sea monster, so I extend the same courtesy to fish who face the reverse situation (who are likewise sentient and have just as much interest in continuing and enjoying their existence as humans, albeit in their own fishy way). It's just an example of the age old golden rule, one should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. As it is scientifically proven fish feel pain and suffering, and I seek to avoid my own pain and suffering, therefore I shouldn't inflict it on others (or pay others to do this on my behalf).

It doesn't matter that fish aren't as cute/intelligent as some land animals; it would be morally wrong to suggest that is more acceptable to torture an unattractive human than a cute one, would it not? The only morally relevant criteria here is sentience.

There's no reason to eat fish at all, we can meet all our nutrtional needs with a plant based diet. Protein is abundant as long as you're eating sufficient calories; B12 is found in marmite type spreads, fortified plant milks and supplements; omega 3's are found in walnuts and flax and eating a diet low in refined/ processed fats. It's not nutritionally necessary.

Just because it feels pleasurable to the taste buds doesn't make it right. Torturing kittens may feel awesome to the perpetrator, who invokes the hedonisic argument, "well, it feels good to me, therefore there's nothing wrong with it". Most people would agree that idea holds no weight and is repugnant.

Therefore, if it's not nutritionally necessary to eat fish or land animals, doesn't the same argument hold?

this sort of stuff is why i have been veggie for years. although i do occassionally eat fish theses days as i don't eggs and need protein i limit it and and am careful about what i choose. the reality is with the stocks how they are there is no such thing as sustainable fish AT ALL. we can start eating less well known fish but that is not going to be enough to improve biodiveristy in our oceans. the truth is with the world population the size it is anything that humans do is unsustainable because of the numbers of people invovled doing it. and it is the next generations who are going to suffer.

what surprises me is the amount of people who are shocked by shows like this. seriously, do you not know what is going on in the world or how your food is produced until a middle class tv presenter makes a show about it? does this information really come as news to you? it has been going on for many years (certainly since i was a child) and not exactly secretly. how did you think they got the fish out of the sea?

fair enough midsummerfae - but given that there are still (on the Vegetarian Society's figures) 57,000,000 non-vegetarians in the UK, what about trying to change things for the better within the industry now?

"what surprises me is the amount of people who are shocked by shows like this. seriously, do you not know what is going on in the world or how your food is produced until a middle class tv presenter makes a show about it? "

I try to be informed about the food I eat and make informed choices. I know alot about meat production, and how the dairy industry links in with the veal industry for example (so any vegetarians who eat dairy can climb down off that high horse).

I know that cod stocks are low, and that tuna fishing is bad for alot of marine life.

What I didn't know is that whilst our fishermen are fishing for so called sustainable fish such as bass, dover sole, ling etc they are killing and dumping thousands of cod. And by the looks on some of the politicians faces they didn't know either.

Wait till you see Gordon's shark finning episode (Sunday at 9pm). That is absolutely horrific!

Oh sorry I wasn't shocked enough previously keplerb. Look, I read the Guardian and the New Internationalist, I allocate 2 hours a day to being shocked at things, and there just hasn't been room in my being shocked schedule in the last few months for being shocked at EU fisheries policy. However, i can assure you that i WAS shocked at this, I did know about it previously, and that I had it on my being shocked schedule for possibly 2012. HFW's work has just brought it forward that's all.

@kepler
I don't eat eggs at all either. I meet all my protein needs from beans, pulses, tofu, soya milk, soya mince, quinoa, rice, bread and many other vegetables and grains. You're so right about the fishing industry decimating the marine eco-systems and there being no sustainable way to eat fish at all; however, may I respectfully contend that you are a flexitarian rather than a vegetarian. It's slight ambiguities like these that cause confusion in the wider population that vegetarians can eat fish, and can lead to embarrassment when hosts and restauranteurs put fish on the menu as the 'veggie' option.

@mackerel
I would contend that instead of educating people to eat 'a different kettle of fish' as it were, or lobbying the fisheries ministers & policy makers for slight tweeks to the regulations and quotas, we give more prominence and promotion to veggie cuisine and moral philosophy on TV & the mainstream media. Industry is always going to find loopholes and ways round legislation when there is a resource like the oceans to be exploited. IMHO the best way to tackle this is supply & demand economics, ie decreasing the numbers of fish/flesh eating consumers so that the industry gradually atrophies and the economic activity & employment shifts towards more horticultural based patterns.

midsummer, what if TV is covered with programmes on moral philosophy and people still choose to eat meat and fish?

I would agree with you though that it is a crying shame there hasn't been a proper vegetarian cuisine series on TV for a very long time, if ever. Did Rose Elliott ever get a series, 20 years or so ago?

I agree with mackerel I have just signed the petition.

Signed up.

I find buying fish a bit of a giant ethical headache tbh and have almost got to the stage of not buying it at all as I stand there in the fish aisle dithering about picking things up and putting them back down again.

I stopped buying farmed salmon after sophable's dh's thread last year ( was starting to go off the flavour anyway). Now all I get is pole & line tuna, mackerel and the odd packet of prawns (not sure if these are good or bad)....oh and fish fingers, which are probably cod. The dog gets pilchards.

WIll asking at the fish counter in sainsbury's for pollock or coley really help? The people behind the counters aren't proper fishmongers or butchers, will they feed back customer requests. they always seem half asleep.

Can I buy ethical fish on line somewhere?

@mackerel
In antebellum America it was socially acceptable to own and exploit slaves. Due to great efforts by abolitionists and social reformers this gradually changed, to the point today where the thought of owning or trading another human being is completely unacceptable to all decent thinking people.

However, despite it being against international law it still goes on, especially human trafficking for prostitution and domestic staff. The fact that a few people choose to perpetuate this, doesn't invalidate the fact that human trafficking is wrong.

I'd like to see a similar shift in attitudes towards the farming and fishing of sentient non human animals.

Does that mean I.d like to see consumption of meat banned? No I wouldn't, as I think prohibition has opposite and unintended effects to those desired, for example the prohibition of alcohol was a disaster. However I hope people become more aware of the issues, the paradigm shifts towards extending the golden rule to the rest of the animal kingdom.

This is one thing guaranteed to have me frothing at the mouth with frustration. The whole thing is just so unintelligent , not to mention profoundly immoral. The world's fish stocks stand on the brink of collapse and we have this insane European policy which no one seems to have the will to do anything about.

I also agree with Callisto in that I really don't think there's any excuse for eating cod or haddock any more. They are endangered species ffs!

Pretty much every policy towards the sea in Europe and in the UK is wrong headed, in terms of over-fishing, the quota system, the lack of protection of nursery grounds, and destructive fishing methods which results in the mass deaths of dolphins and porpoises (off our own coasts as well as further afield). I am in no way a Europhobe, but the idiocy of the CFP on its own is enough to make me think we should leave the EU

There is stuff that you can do about it, by the way. Don't buy trawled fish. Download the Marine Conservation Society's Good Fish Guide and it will help you decide which are the responsible ones to eat. If something isn't done now, it will result in the mass collapse of the world's fisheries, an enormous loss of biodiversity, and suffering and starvation for many species, including humans.

@slubbarde
What's an ethical fish? One who reads Kant and J S Mill and Jeremy Bentham? Isn't the concept meaningless if the fish still suffer and die for no essential purpose? If drowning puppies is wrong, why is ripping fish out of the ocean any different?

The only reason why it could be is that puppies are cuter and we are more emotionally attached to them. As I demonstrated above, cuteness is not a relevant moral criteria in deciding the moral rightness or otherwise of killing. Likewise, it is just as wrong to kill a stranger as someone you are emotionally close to.

Sorry misspelled your name SlubberdeGurnard

Slubber the basic fish at Sainsbo' is Pollock - frozen pack - you can easily cook direct from frozen - our DS' have it most Fridays - with chip shop bought chips.

I can't say 100% that we should not be eating cod / haddock as we don't really know what the total catch is and what stocks are left. Think some will always be caught - since if you are going to trawl you'll find different varities. We should use all the fish caught - saw the Jamie Fish supper where Dabs are thrown back because no demand - if you sold them at store of £1ea I'd buy them up!

mmh midsummer, an interesting debate, but possibly not one relevant to this thread, although I can understand the logical argument for giving up eating meat and fish altogether. I'm never going to be a vegetarian so it's a moot point really.

thanks AriesGirl I will have a look at the MCSs good fish guide.

Nigella I didn't know that, I'll check out the frozen fish aisle next time I'm in.

Think I read somewhere they are going to rename Pollock Brian as people didn't like to ask for Pollock!!!

@ Brian

Could you imagine - I'll have a couple thick fillets of Brian please!! Also when did Blood Oranges become Ruby ones?

oh wow, so glad this thread has been going well.

@Tempertrapped - I have got H F-W's 'River Cottage Fish Book' here which is good on techniques, shopping and ethics. Cooking fish is amazingly easy and quick once you are confident about it - agree with Nigella that supermarket labels tend to tell you to overcook it.
IMO the most important thing in terms of eating quality is getting it as fresh as poss - eat it the day you go shopping.

@Slubber - Morrisons has proper fishmongers.

agree with Nigella re basics pollock. Often the coley and pollock is marketed as basic white fish and you just have to look at the small print to find out what it is. Non-cod fish fingers are cheaper than cod ones too.
All of which makes a nice change from most ethical shopping where the more ethical stuff is more expensive....

Hugh's petition is going great guns - not far from 300 000. However I can't believe his mackerel baps are going to catch on - you have to be in the mood for mackerel and it is only nice if super-fresh IMO....

Mackerel goes quite fishy very quickly - very fresh it's great but like most oily fishes not so good being kept hanging around too long.

Ooh - that's a good 'catch'