to ask why, if you think a job is so cushy, you don't actually do it?

[Serendippy]

Genuine question, although guaranteed to rile a number of you

This comes mostly from the comments about teachers/childminders. Funnily enough, I have never once heard anyone say, 'God, I paid my callout plumber a fortune, I wish I had his job'. Is this because most of us do not have any idea about plumbing? But it seems that most think they know about educating a child, so why not do it? Especially now you are given money to train asa teacher and if you already have a degree, it only takes a 9 month course to qualify? I appreciate that if you have no qualifications in place already, becoming a teacher would involve a long time on no income training, but if you would only have to do 9 months and then get loadsa money for sitting kids in front of DVDs, leaving work at 3 and swanning off on holiday for 13 weeks a year, why don't you? Same goes for childminding, if it is so easy to mind other people's children and at the same time you would save on childcare for your own, why don't you do it?

Right, who wants to throw the first punch?

LookToWindward. I'm surprised that you are a Police Officer since you don't seem to know the basic proceedure when it comes to weapons in schools.

Students with weapons were never arrested inside the college grounds. That way madness (and riots) lie. Anyone who had dealt with adolescents, especially those from chaotic and violent backgrounds, knows of their ability to make a huge fuss when confronted. They are dab hands and making a scene, including their friends, classmates, passers by and they whole school in their own personal drama if necessary. The process, always, was to discretely remove them from the situation and arrest out of sight. We even had our own on-site policeman who would never arrest armed students without backup. The trick was to notify security (or our policeman if we could track him down) get the student to leave the building. If we were really worried about something kicking off, I've known security to manufacture a fire alarm to clear the building without the student suspecting. The police from the local station would then discretely isolate the student and spirit them off to the local nick.

If you only deal with statistics, it's easy to miss the fact that these are probably not classed as school incidents as the student is arrested off site. If we had the cops come blazing in every time a student was spotted with something dodgy we would never have got any work done. Once we had calmed xdown the student body (who are capable of being over excited by something like an arrest for days) dealt with the panicking parents and calmed ourselves, it would be time for the next incident to kick off.

my dh has just qualified through the GTP route. He works ridiculously hard. But I won't listen to moaning about the hours of planning, marking etc.

It was very hard for him to get a place, and jobs were very scarce afterwards. And, IMHO he's good, enthusiastic and dedicated.
He enjoys his job, and is challenged. That's why he does it. He wanted that job, and we all suffered for him to get it.

So no more whinging.

"it's easy to miss the fact that these are probably not classed as school incidents as the student is arrested off site."

Oh they are - incidents are logged as at the site of the offence not where the arrest (may) be made.

I'll post later when I've more time but you're sadly mistaken that somehow there's a swath of firearms or violent incidents at schools that are somehow "under the radar".

I will say this again as its important - the incidence of firearms offences committed at or involving secondary education establishments in the UK is so low as to be statistically (if not actually) zero.

The average teacher is at as much risk of injury or death in their career as a retail worker.

Edgar AP, the jobs you list where people may be exposed to abuse, are not ones which require a degree. My point is that when you look at the conditions that many teachers work in, it doesn't compare with other careers requiring the same level of qualifications.

That, of course, doesn't make it right that anyone should have to put up with that, but you aren't comparing like with like. Also, I am under the impression that medical services can turn away abusive patients, but teachers can and are physically attacked by pupils, and have to continue teaching them.

I personally was happy with the general pay of teachers, but to say that it compares with other careers requiring the same level of academic achievement just isn't accurate. ok, so the job security & holidays help, but it still doesn't even out.

i'm not saying it should even be any different - after all, teaching doesn't generate a profit, so how can teachers get paid more without tax increases. i just think that because teachers are part of everyday life, people don't compare their jobs with others in the private sector.

i also am v aware that people such as doctors, vets etc have even more extensive training than teachers, and their pay doesn't reflect the higher salaries within a lot of private companies.

basically, anything that requires 'caring' is generally underpaid when compared with profit-making industries. some people would say that it is because the caring jobs don't generate a profit, others would say that it is because a lot of these roles, historically at least, were female roles, and have therefore been under-valued by society.

most jobs in Nursing now require a degree of some kind, or on-the-job experience.

In the medical profession its very hard to turn someoen away in an emergency/acute situation. I've been hit by a woman in labour and also thumped by a (different)woman's husband. The woman in labour we couldn't kick out and I rang security and asked them to remove the husband from the ward but they were too busy to come and told me to ring the police. He left before I did call the police.

I don't think that either teaching or child minding is a cushy job. I wouldn't want to be a child minder as I don't like small children very much. I'd quite like to be a teacher and have a degree but its not in a curriculm subject so I've been told I can't do a PGCE. Was about 9 years ago I was told that, is it still true?

depends viva - there are roads in. I am going to have to do a bridging course if successful in my application and get down on my hands and knees .

from where I'm applying from my degree was 10 years ago anyway- even if i ws going to teach exactly my degree subject content I'd have to revise it in depth as though it was new.

crosses fingers<

I am quite worried and excited about it TBH. My expectation is that i will struggle at first, but get through it.

I personally was happy with the general pay of teachers, but to say that it compares with other careers requiring the same level of academic achievement just isn't accurate. ok, so the job security & holidays help, but it still doesn't even out.

i found accountancy a good comparator - siilar base line (eg. accounts clerk vs Teachingassistant) high point (Hit-squad Head vs Partner) and beginner stafffrom 15-25k and qualified mostly about 30-35k.

my Sister and husband were level pegging salary wise (ok, she was ahead of him) until he got fired!

I'm childminding for a couple of teachers at the moment, both are infant school teachers. Neither finishes before 5pm on any school day, so I don't know where this "finish at 3pm" rubbish comes from.

The other thing that often gets me is the claim that we childminders don't have to pay for our own childcare. That's wrong. OFSTED count our own children as part of our numbers so each child is effectively taking up a full time space and we don't get vouchers or working tax credit to help with the cost, either.

LooktoWinward - I am at risk from Heb B & HIV in my job. I face aggression & violence every day. It is NOT laughable. At least one of my team is injured more or less every day, often multiple times. Today I came home with only a few pinch and scratch marks, so it's not been a bad day.

We have had knives in school - and the police were called and the young person removed by 2 police officers. And although it is rare, that's not a one off.

My school is different than most but it's far from cushy.

I love my job but it's hard. I don't expect anyone to say great things about teachers but I also don't expect them to bitch and moan about how easy teachers have it and, when they do, I don't take it well.

It seems it's teachers versus the rest of us.
Lets have a go a social workers now

I really don't understand all this - I never think about other people's jobs and how easy or hard they are or how much they get paid. If I wanted a different job/ more money/ different hours then I would look for a different job. I have every respect for people who do other jobs. Any other job. What does it matter to me how hard other people work?

As long as I am content with my own situation, why criticise others? I don't have time to sit and wonder how many hours police officers/ plumber/ social workers/ bin men/ doctors work or how much they earn. It doesn't matter to me. I don't want to do any of those jobs. I couldn't do any of those jobs & I admire anyone who does do them.

Bravo Grockle

Can I just C&P your post Grockle?
I agree completely.

My DD went for her Post Graduate interview at 1 o clock today. She was working right up till Sunday and had to watch 5 15 minute videos and decide on a topic. She managed to prepare a presentation yesterday and was still watching the one she decided on this morning. She didn't know where she was going so had to look on the internet for directions. She was all prepared and ready to go only to find she was locked in the house. She had to climb out the bathroom window ripping her tights to get to the interview. Two hours later she got a call to say she had got on the course. She had to tell them about climbing out the window to explain the tights but they thought it was funny.

ooh, grockle, i am so with you.

i just get annoyed by people that think a)teachers have an easy life or b)that their pay is somehow 'higher earning'.

it's not bad money, and i was happy with it, but i wouldn't compare it with a lot of other jobs & think that i'm onto 'a nice little earner'.

the op was making the same point - there are some (quite vocal) people who seem to think it's a bit cushy, if that's the case, why aren't more of them applying for teaching courses? they're not prepared to 'put their money where their mouth is', often.

luckily, there are also people who have respect for the job & all that it entails.

I'm not going to contribute to this thread again because Kickassangel has gone and started the controversey up again. Grrr.

Well I've just got in from work no less (after a eight am start but it's a busy week for me at the moment).

I just wanted to mention a few points.

1. Teaching is not a dangerous profession. Sorry but it just isn't. The figures bear it out - someone working in Tesco is just as "at risk" as a secondary teacher. You can give all the anecdotes you want but the figures bear me out.

Additionally (and to answer another poster) teachers are not (with very specific exclusions) at risk of hep b or HIV. Even the NUT says the risk of contracting hep-b is "minimal". Teachers are at no more risk than any other group.

We can discuss discipline and the role of teaching in society but its folly to compare a surly teenager with having to restrain a coked up "gent" with a broken bottle as one of my colleagues had to do today because teaching isn't a dangerous profession.

1. Renumeration. I believe teachers are paid well - not excessively but certainly not poorly. As I said earlier - how many careers out there with the same low entry requirements where a switched on candidate can be earning £30K after a few years? Seriously - outside of the city name one where that is readily achievable.

Certainly compared to other careers that spring to mind such as accountancy (which has a much more demanding set of qualifications). Outside of the m4 corridor, a qualified management accountant will struggle to earn the same £30K that a teacher will in the same timescale. And this is before you consider the pensions, job security, holidays etc.

Further up the scale the comparison works well. A head earning £50 - £60K is the same as (for example) a Superintendent or the head of a good sized local authority department. It's probably comparable to a director of a SME or SMT level of a larger organisation. Hardly low.

This is especially pertinant given the low entry requirements for a PGCE which is an honours degree - a third.

1. Workload. Well this is a subjective one and I can only speak of my DHs experiences. As I've said my DH considers many of his colleagues who have only ever taught as "naive" when it comes to what hard work is. Obviously things vary between schools, subjects etc but my DH is regularly in before 5pm. Holidays are (baring a day or two depending on the time of year) his own. And my DH works in large inner city school in the North of England which (as far I can tell) had a reputation in the area for being rough. Apparently this is one of the reasons he has done so well - apparently it's a tough gig. As I've said, he teaches maths and has some kind of involvement in the pastoral side.

Is teaching a "cushy number"? As I've said, in my opinion no - it's a job that like any other has its ups and its downs. It's a job that at times demands its pound of flesh.

Is teaching "hard" - well I don't think so. I think (and this thread has just confirmed it to me) that many teachers have no idea what life outside of their cosseted profession is like. Teachers don't necessarily have it easy but they have it an awful lot easier than many make out.

Anyway, I'm off for a glass of wine. Good night all.

windward - I would just say, that knowing the kind of school grockle is in, she is one of those 'very specific exclusions' you mention, and the risk of hepb etc is real. of course, it's not a general risk (i think many of us are saying that teaching is pressured, not dangerous) but she works in a special school for very VERY 'special' children.

which, of course, makes her a very special teacher.

Totally agree with what looktowindward said.

grockle People sometimes criticise teachers because, as a group, you do moan/strike rather a lot - which annoys some of us private sector professionals, who often work longer hours (60+ hour weeks often expected), have far shorter holidays (4 or 5 weeks only - and have to be in mobile/email contact even then), are often better qualified (eg accountants, lawyers), are also in stressful jobs, have less job security, yet are paid a similar amount (if not less). If teachers didn't moan/strike, we wouldn't criticise.

My main two complaints are:

1. That advert which says 'Become a teacher and earn upwards of £35K'. You will not earn this if you want to be a teacher, actually teaching in the classroom. You will earn this is you go down the route of becoming a deputy and then head, but as far as I can see, these jobs are becoming further and further distanced from teaching. So most teachers do not earn upwards of £35K a year, the people at the top do. And yes, as far as I'm aware, any good teacher can progress in this way, but they are then, IMO, in a different job and not a teacher.

2. That you can get straight into a graduate course with a 2:2. No, you can't. You have to do a PGCE. I have friends who qualified the same time as me, around 10 years ago, who mostly got 2:2s and all went into graduate jobs. The 2:2s were from good universitys though, which I think is another part of the problem, the value employers put not only on a class of degree but also the institution.

Sorry, to finish the above post, I think this is why teachers moan, because they are constantly being told how easy their job is, how well paid, how great the holidays and short working days. If I said to a friend that I thought she did hardly any work for a decent salery, I would expect her to become defesive!

1. That advert which says 'Become a teacher and earn upwards of £35K'. You will not earn this if you want to be a teacher, actually teaching in the classroom.

sorry, but you're wrong. my sister was on that much. and she taught in the classroom.

she hopes to be a deputy head on 50k within 5 years. I don't doubt she'll get there.

How long has she been teaching in the classroom? Does she not have any management responsibility at all? My uncle was a teacher for 18 years and left the profession a few years ago on just under 30K pa. A good salery, granted, but because he wanted to be a teacher and not get involved with the paper pushing and management side, he took until the age of 52 to get to this salery (having gone into teaching relatively late after working in another industry) so I do believe it is misleading to imply that the majority of teachers earn over £35K. For some they wont be on that until nearly the end of their career.

she had additional points for postgrad qualifications, and (4 years? i don't know if they included 2 years she did PT) teaching experience - but she was teaching and din't have any additional major role (so form tutor yes, head of dept no).

personally if i am lucky enough to get accepted, i'll be much worse off during PGCE - then slightly worse off in my NQT year, with paying off the loan, and travel, but about the same or better after that

crosses fingers