to ask why, if you think a job is so cushy, you don't actually do it?

[Serendippy]

Genuine question, although guaranteed to rile a number of you

This comes mostly from the comments about teachers/childminders. Funnily enough, I have never once heard anyone say, 'God, I paid my callout plumber a fortune, I wish I had his job'. Is this because most of us do not have any idea about plumbing? But it seems that most think they know about educating a child, so why not do it? Especially now you are given money to train asa teacher and if you already have a degree, it only takes a 9 month course to qualify? I appreciate that if you have no qualifications in place already, becoming a teacher would involve a long time on no income training, but if you would only have to do 9 months and then get loadsa money for sitting kids in front of DVDs, leaving work at 3 and swanning off on holiday for 13 weeks a year, why don't you? Same goes for childminding, if it is so easy to mind other people's children and at the same time you would save on childcare for your own, why don't you do it?

Right, who wants to throw the first punch?

Having many teacher friends and a parent who was a teacher - I agree. It's a very difficult job, I couldn't do it (don't particularly like children), but it does kind of grate when some teachers complain about how difficult there life is, or come out with particularly douchey comments like "I need a vacation to be at least 2 weeks long, in order to properly relax"

Journey "Teachers do get massively long holidays. Their day is much shorter than most other jobs"

That is just bollocks. Not true for every teacher at all. There were 2 days in the last holiday that dh did no work at all. 2 days. And he finishes around 11pm in the evening, after being in school since 7.30am at the latest.

He doesn't moan about it btw, I get pissed off with the whiny fucking generalisations from members of the public who know nowt about it except they once went to school.

he works from 7.30am till 11pm and every day in the holidays? What the feck is he doing in all that time?

I used to teach (secondary, inner city). Very few teachers in my last job had not been assaulted in some way. It was the hardest job I've ever done (and I've worked in lots of fields)and all for less than 30k. Also you are in work from 8am and out by 3.30 but still have at least 2 hours work every night and same each day at the weekend.It is also a very pressurised job and no one thanks you (well, rarely) if you do a good job but they are quick to jump in if you make a mistake. I was a good teacher but by the end I could hardly sleep due to high stress levels.

Just because you point out the advantages (very long holidays, limited school days) of a certain job doesn't mean that you would personally want to do it, but I think it's fine to question as a society if that's a fair renumeration for the job, given that it's paid for by our tax.

And, perhaps teaching has changed, I don't doubt that the hours in front of the class are tiring and challenging, but many in my family teach, and they rarely, if ever, stay up til 11pm!

Oh and in other jobs you usually get the chance to sit down/drink coffee/eat your lunch/go to the toilet. We had a load of Oxbridge graduates come in under the 'Teach First' scheme where they were told they would use their superior brains to help us low IQ teachers to improve the school. By the end of one year, none were left. They had all gone off sick/had breakdowns/been asked to leave/quit.

Being an Oxbridge graduate doesn't make you a good teacher - it's soft skills that matter most in teaching of course. You can't learn classroom management from a book. That's the stupid thing about the 'Teach First' scheme, completely agreed there.

Buzz, of course he's not working constantly between those hours, don't be obtuse. His school is the best part of an hour away, and he spends an hour with the chiddlers then half an hour or so with me/having tea, making his working day around 13 hours.

He's the sole specialist teacher of his subject at his school, he's an NQT, and he's setting up the A Level program, amongst other things. During the holiday he was taking emails/calls from both colleagues and his pupils, as well as doing marking from last term and prep for this. That's 'what the feck he is doing in all this time'. Hth.

As I said earlier my DH is a teacher and from what I can gather is doing rather well - had a few promotions, is well regarded, etc. He went in to teaching as the stress of his previous job was killing him.

I was chatting about this to him last night. He thinks teaching is a doddle compared to what he used to do. Shorter days, less stress, better holidays. The basic problem is that so many teachers have never worked outside of education before. They have no idea that their "incredibly taxing and stressful day" is pretty much the norm for the rest of the working population. There is a clear divide at his workplace between those who have only worked in teaching and those - like my DH - who are late entrants to the career. I think the comment someone made earlier comparing a PGCE to a post grad qualification or trying to compare a year of 200 kids to managing 200 full time staff just shows how far out touch most "life" teachers are.

Teaching isn't an "easy" job by any means but its not particularly hard and its very well paid considering the relatively low entry requirements and the generous T&Cs.

He also says that any teacher working 13 hour days or more than a day or two of a holiday is - to be blunt - incompetent.

Hmm, now while I calim to have been an incredibly efficient teacher (once I had DD I was organised), but even then, 9 or 10 hours was the norm. I did, however, work with a few of those who never seemed to need as much time to do things as the rest of us. Generally these were men. They were also the ones who caused a lot of hassle for me as I was constantly clearing up the mess they had left behind.

I worked with a bloke who used to wonder at the amount of work that the majority of us did. He, simply, wasn't competent enough to realise that we were spending the time clearing up his messes. Damn guy got promoted all the time because he could talk the talk (and was male, which in teaching is a distincet advantage)

I've worked in lots of areas, events management, IT, teaching.... The worst one for sheer hard work was working in a care home with dementia patients. One of the reasons I was put off medicine as a career. My hat goes off to the nurses and medics in Mumsnet.

I don't think medics and other public sector workers should be talked about in the same breath. Medics have a guaranteed job for life; GPs are paid an enormous sum of money for a decreasing amount of work. The ones I know have several properties, drive 'company' cars, take several long holidays a year, usually take Friday's off to 'play golf' and pay their surgery staff as little as they can get away with.
Some are dedicated to their work but most are now more interested in their wallets.

"He also says that any teacher working 13 hour days or more than a day or two of a holiday is - to be blunt - incompetent." Jeez Windward, judgmental much?

Not debating this further.

True, but it doesn't make you a bad one either.

"Being an Oxbridge graduate doesn't make you a good teacher"

I dont particularly like children (my own are fine )

I don't like public speaking

I wouldn't be a plumber because I don't like rats and spiders

Although I'd welcome the hourly rate of either

I have a PGCE relatively easy compared to my other degrees, my Mother was a teacher and her job was way way way easier than mine!

medics don't have guaranteed job for life I have a fmily member who is medic and jost lost hers FWIW she says medical unemployment is about to get big!!

(what a waste of taxpayers cash)

what does your dh teach windward?

My SIL is a PE teacher she doesn't work 13 hr days/holidays my mother taught English and MFL more holiday work there (preparing all those English texts this was in the good old days when 16 year olds could read!!)

just fecking asking!

For all the bad bits though - the marking, planning, report writing etc - there are those times that make the long hours worth it. SEN classes saying something brilliantly funny / insightful, a kid doing well when nobody expected them to, taking them on a trip somewhere they'd never have been with their family, when they come back and visit after they've left school, watching them get awards, even offering you one of their sweets!

Yes, it is a bloody hard job at times and is not a cushy number (my fave comment is 'you only work part time anyway'!!!) BUT there are rewards that you don't get anywhere else and that's what keeps me going through all the stressful / tiring / bloody horrible times.

I've been a teacher for eight years, have HATED it at times but I know that nothing else would be as rewarding for me.

LookToWindward Mon 10-Jan-11 14:04:50

He also says that any teacher working 13 hour days or more than a day or two of a holiday is - to be blunt - incompetent.

Or harder working? Or more prepared? Or more interested in being a few steps ahead of the children? Or not lazy?

What a crap argument, but to expected from someone who went into teaching looking for an easy life.

My DH teaches maths.

"Or harder working? Or more prepared? Or more interested in being a few steps ahead of the children? Or not lazy?"

Or just good at his job and not a martyr to it? As I've said, by all accounts, DH is considered an excellent teacher, promoted past many of his colleagues, excellent professional development (or whatever its called in education), popular with colleagues, pupils and parents. I've been told he has a natural flair for the job.

And compared to what he used to do, it is an easy life - I can see the difference in him and we have much more time together than in his old life. True he doesn't earn as much but its hardly a bad wage.

As I've said, he (and I) don't consider teaching to be a "cushy number" - like any jobs it has its up and its downs and at times it can be trying but it's really no worse than any other career and an awful lot easier than some and it really is rewarded very well considering.

In my 'cushy' job today, I have had 3 meetings (at 8.30, 1 and again at 4), done a full day's teaching (that's the 9 - 3.30 but), been headbutted and bitten badly enough that it is swollen, bruised & grazed. Then I came home, fed DS, heard him read his school book, put him to bed and I am about to start my evening work. I reckon it'll take about 3 hours. And that's a typical day really.

look to windward i was the one who made the comments you refer to, and like your husband, i also entered teaching after other jobs/careers.

my point was, that my dad, who was a director of a large insurance co., was in charge of the 'typing pool' of 200 people. (among other things) he didn't have half the answering back, sickness rates, parents complaining etc.

what makes me question the pay element was when one head teacher i worked for listed the number of staff she was responsible for, the pupils, as well as the budget she juggled. compared with the same number of staff, 'clients', and budget of someone running a private co. (with a board of directors above them) she was on peanuts. if you allowed for the extra holiday and job security, it STILL didn't equate to the same kind of pay in the private sector.

it's fair enough to question the pay, after all it is tax payers' money, but it still doesn't compare well with private employment. most teachers just accept this because they want to do their job.

there are some teachers working 13 hours a day who are incompetent, others just never know how to switch off. having one year had nothing but exam groups, in two essay subjects, i can say that the mark load for the final coursework (which for essay subjects ALL has to be annotated etc & can't be done before a certain date) was in excess of 150 hours. on top of my normal, full time teaching job. how was i supposed to work less hours? especially as ALL my classes were about to do GCSE or A Levels, so I had to have really 'on the ball' revision lessons.

i think it can vary depending on the school - having worked in one place where we were understaffed, i used to have to set lessons for 5 extra classes as well as my own. i've also worked in inner city schools, where every day the paperwork & meetings to deal with problems would take up at least 2 hours after school, and resources had to be prepared almost for each individual, where pupils were hugely abusive (and abused, often).

a fully staffed school with less behaviour issues require a lot less time input.

haha - windward, i nearly asked if your dh teaches maths, before i read your last post.

maths is the 'light' subject when it comes to hours of input, cos the marking is way quicker (but can be harde in the classroom if kids don't like it). pe is also light on marking, but heavy on after school activities. the 'humanities' subjects require a fair bit more time in at gcse. those of use in the english dept got nothing but sympathy when we lamented the 20+ pages, per pupil, for GCSE moderation.

maths also has text books to work from, not every subject has that.

Dh is an exceptional teacher in a tough, tough school (the school serves two rough estates with many social problems) but does most of his marking in class (maths). He finds it relatively non stressful because he is very good at what he does, liked by pupils and parents alike, and knows that whilst he's there he'll work damn hard. He has much wider responsibilities though and they take up his time, so he's leaves at 7/7.30am and is home by about 6pm.

My pressures are different - heavy marking load and heavy prep load in a high achieving school with large class sizes. It's pressured in front of the class and it's pressured in terms of what is demanded of you. I race home to get the dcs from childminder/nursery and have hours of prep and marking after the dcs are in bed. Have had to go part-time whilst the dcs are young as there is no way I can devote enough time to the job and be a parent.

Only a teacher with a marking-lite subject or is timetable-lite can make comments re not working excessive hours in term time. It's just the way of this particular job.

Here's a question Kickassangel - have you ever worked (and by that I mean, a professional career) outside of the education environment?

Because what you describe as a workload here:

"having one year had nothing but exam groups, in two essay subjects, i can say that the mark load for the final coursework (which for essay subjects ALL has to be annotated etc & can't be done before a certain date) was in excess of 150 hours. on top of my normal, full time teaching job. how was i supposed to work less hours? especially as ALL my classes were about to do GCSE or A Levels, so I had to have really 'on the ball' revision lessons."

really isn't that unusual and really isn't isn't that much.

Regards salary, a head earns what? £50 to 60K+ depending. In the private sector (outside of the city) that kind of money usually means SMT or exec level and while it's hard to compare a school to any normal organisation I for one don't think its "low" given the kind of job you'd be looking at in the private sector. Looking further down the scale a new - relatively switched on entrant to teaching can be earning £30K after a a few years. There really aren't many careers where that is the case - especially considering the low entry requirements and the number of applicants. And that's before you consider the other benefits (one of the best pensions available in the country, a virtual cast iron guarantee that you can't be sacked due to performance and yes - the holidays).

Having seen both sides, from my DH and my friends and family who teach, it is a rewarding and interesting career but it really isn't that hard or that arduous compared to some and it really is very well rewarded.

While I don't want to suggest that teachers complain any more than any other group some really don't realise exactly how good they have it...