Not to think that childminders are underpaid?

[miniwedge]

Last childminder charged £4.50 per hour, she had three over eights full time, ie retainer for school hours, after and before school care, full hours in school holidays. Plus three pre schoolers at the same rate.
My average monthly term time bill was £400, holidays was ave three times that.
So as a self-employed person she was actually doing pretty well for herself.

Surely childminding is like any other profession? Its regulated and you have to pay for exams, just like say a gas fitter, you have to have the right equipment, just like a mobile mechanic say, you have to make sure you pitch for enough work to cover your financial needs, just like a mobile hairdresser?

So, am I being unreasonable to think that it is just the same as any other self employed profession in that if you have enough work you can do well, if you don't it leads to a lean time but the basic underlying wage is not the issue.

I am fully prepared for my first mums net flaming and have my new name ready if necessary. ;-)

Disclaimer; I have no issue with a childminder earning well, I am not posting to be inflammatory but I am interested to see if it's a point of view that anyone else has considered.

[ohyaychristmas]

Mini, everyone understands that childminders might have more than one mindee per hour. No one has denied that.

The reality is that almost no one is looking after more than 3 children at once, and almost no one is earning more than the minimum wage per child. So almost no one is earning anywhere close to £17.79 p/h (min wage x 3), much less doing so full time.

I do not really understand why you started this thread. Could you explain?

Do you think £17.79 per hour is unreasonable pay for someone EYFSing 3 under-5s in her or his own home, after tax and expenses?

Just curious.

Of course CMing isn't necessarily, or always, underpaid. But I've never met a childminder with a significant disposable income.

[DancingOnMyBladder]

There's a lot of 'if' and 'might' have more than one child at a time but there's also loats of times where we don't.

[LoveRedShoes]

Montysorry you are ridiculously touchy. I just said don't call me Ill-informed, I did not question anything to do with your own background or experience as I wasn't rude enough to call YOU ill-informed. I wouldn't be so rude as to call someone I don't know ill-informed.
Unlike you, I was not questioning your experience.
A little aggressive?
No, I didn't know (or particularly care) what age you were referring to, I made a generalized comment about ages of children, implying that a nursery setting is perhaps not ideal for a very young child. That is not aimed at you, it is simply a comment I am making.
You are making this personal, please stop. I used your name in conversation to outline I had a different opinion about paying for holidays - that. Is. All.

[noodle69]

I know many teachers here that have got on to PGCE courses without A levels at all. Many of my freinds went the the vocational route at the uni I attended and end up in teaching jobs. I know some with 2:2 that have also completed PGCEs and are working in teaching jobs that have graduated in the last few years.

I think the gap between the two is closing in but it is not supported by the government. Its something that concerns me as I want standards to stay high. We are losing so many high calibre people in early years with the changes imposed by the new government and it is a big concern of mine.

[noodle69]

I will add that I do feel sorry for childminders too. I know many who have studied the degree, done EYP, are trained in extra training such as ECAT and Forest School leader training and they dont take home much money at all.

Things have changed and childminding isnt what it used to be. There are so many regulations and constant training that needs to be done.

[noodle69]

sorry that should say have undertaken extra training

[ohyaychristmas]

So true Noodle re the regs and constant training. Childminders need to raise costs to address these, but parents need to profit from their own work after childcare. It's tough for everyone.

I swing wildly between having broadly libertarian beliefs about trusting childminders and parents, and knowing that nanny government intervention has addressed critical safeguarding issues as well as practitioners' needs for education, particularly around attachment and learning through play.

TBH I don't know what the answer is. Standards need to be high, but I'm not convinced the documentation and constant monitoring is actually making a difference to children's learning, emotional health, etc.

[montysorry]

Not at all touchy! In response to me saying we had chosen a nursery setting you wrote;



So it was perfectly reasonable of me to say, actually, that doesn't apply to me at all.

Anyway, I will bow out as I have nothing more constructive to add other than like all these things, there is regional variations and salary is clearly determined by supply and demand.

[montysorry]

Meant to add that, Noodles, I actually believe that there should be minimum Alevel grades to become a teacher. I want, and expect my children's teachers to be highly qualified academically as well as possessing a flair for teaching.

[noodle69]

I agree ohyaychristmas I think its very difficult to balance doing all the paperwork aspect and providing high quality care for the children. Hence why so many CMS and nursery nurses have to do work at home and out of hours. I think the constant paperwork is sometimes unecessary.

On the bright side though I think a lot of the training courses that are available now are of a high quality and very useful.

MontySorry - Well I dont think a lot are. We have a teacher in our nursery setting, just like you have in the one your child attended, and she has never studied for A levels at all.

[montysorry]

Well, I think a lot are but certainly not all. I have walked into colleagues' classrooms and seen spelling mistakes on boards and even bad corrections in books. It is shocking and I think it needs dealt with.

My DH is a lawyer for a large international bank. You wouldn't last long in his sector if you were poor at your job. I expect my Dr to be able to diagnose and my children's teachers to be well ducated.

[montysorry]

Typos are allowed, of course!

[ohyaychristmas]

Noodle, yes, I try hard to complete paperwork during minding hours if possible (naptimes etc) but there is always more to do once mindees have gone home!

Just to interject here, IMO there needs to be a route into teaching/early years professions for those who haven't done A-levels etc (including home educated children of course)...of course I also want teachers etc to be whip smart, highly qualified, dynamic, emotionally intelligent etc - yet again I offer no solutions

[A1980]

I used to babysit for a rich family in ym teens and twenties.

Mum didn't work and hadn't since she had her first child but she hired a nanny 5 days a week from 8am to 6pm, she had a cleaner 3 times a week, she had her husbands work clothes and shirts washed and ironed, she had people come to the house to do her waxing and beauty treatments, I often ran into her in the town shopping as usual with no kids. I often wondered what she did other than drive her BMW around and shop and go to the gym.

I also often saw the "nanny" in the town with the children! Oh how i wanted to tell the mum that her nanny's idea of childcare was walking them to Burger King, feeding them junk and smoking constantly in the children's presence but I didn't.

Anyway, she paid her nanny £300 a week (illegally, cash in hand) and paid her expenses on top, food for the kids, paid for driving lessons and a car for her...... that was in the 1990's so £300 a week was worth alot more then. Nice job! It that case it was bloody well paid with no tax and no NI taken off the £300.

[fedupofnamechanging]

If a CM is earning £3 per hour and has 3 children, then yes, her hourly wage is £9, but she is working 3x as hard for it!

It is a huge responsibility being solely responsible for other peoples children and the demands on a CM these days in terms of paperwork and training are huge. These are not reflected in the salary. I have been a CM in the past and would never do it again.

I cannot understand why some parents resent paying more for their CM than they would for a cleaner. I echo the phrase used earlier, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

That said, I think parents should consider really carefully what they are agreeing to when they sign a contract. Reading other threads on MN, I think some parents are getting seriously ripped off. A CM is self employed, so in my opinion parents should only be paying for when the service is available. I didn't charge for bank holidays if I wasn't prepared to work. I wouldn't charge if I was sick or on holiday. I would charge if the service was available and the parent chose not to use it (their own family holiday, for example).

[PinkCanary]

While my DD was still a preschooler I was otherwise full, with 2 other full timers and older children before / after school and in the holidays. I took only 2 weeks holiday (unpaid) per year and charged £3 p/h (still do! Market forces). When I worked out my annual accounts I found that after expenses, when I took into account the 60 hours a week I spent child facing, plus the extra time I spent completing paperwork and attending training it turned out I was actually earning £1.18 for each hour of my time.

Only because my DD was at home could I justify working for so little. Now that cohort of children are all of school age I earn a far better wage per hour for the out of school hours I childmind.

However, as I have no f/t space available I've only taken 1 preschool child on since September. 18 hours a week for £54 before expenses. It's not viable to continue. And I am looking for alternative work within school hours where I can at least earn minimum wage.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

If a CM is earning £3 per hour and has 3 children, then yes, her hourly wage is £9

No it's not. That's her gross income, her wages are her net income.

[PlanetEarth]

I wouldn't say it's her gross income either. Gross income = the £9 minus expenses, expenses don't count as income. Net income is then gross income minus tax & NI.

[hatesponge]

My recent experience is that childminders certainly in the area where I live are not underpaid. I wouldn't say they are raking it in, but I think there is the opportunity to earn a decent living - certainly I don't know any poor childminders.

In our area there are not many childminders. Demand exceeds supply and every CM, excellent or average, has a waiting list. In consequence all are full. When my DSs attended a CM (in the last year for DS2, in 2009 for DS1 and 2) their CM had 5 or more children for before and afterschool care, plus a further 3 for the entire day - as they were under school age. In school hols, she had all of them all day. At £3.50/4 per hour it doesn't take much working out she was earning a substantial sum. I should add that the children only got 1 meal per day, plus the occasional snack. The babies brought their own food. The children did trips out but only to local parks. I think it unlikely that her overheads were significant.

One thing I would add - and I mentioned this on another thread earlier - is that when I first went back to work when DS2 (now 12) was a baby, I was paying his CM £70 per week. We lived in a different area to where we live now, but still London outskirts (Southeast rather than East). Charges locally now would be £200, nearly 3 times what I was paying in 1999. My salary has increased in that period, but it certainly hasn't trebled!

[PlanetEarth]

hatesponge, I thought there were limits on how many kids they could have? Say 3 pre-schoolers or 4 older kids? Am I wrong on this?

[PlanetEarth]

OK, just found this:
"Ofsted limits the number of children in the care of the childminder at any one time to 6 children aged 0 ? 8 years, of which no more than three can be under 5 years of age. (Ofsted also stipulates that a childminder may only care for one child less than 12 months old "

[saturdaynightpants]

Im not sure what overheads my cm would have. She doesnt do day sessions so its only after school care. There seems to be some craft stuff about but they dont go out. So Id say after school snacks and craft gear would be it.

[hatesponge]

PlanetEarth - you're right, however theres no restriction on over 8s (certainly none that I'm aware of), my former CM has/had at least 2 of these.

[shoshe]

I charge £4.00 per hour in Dorset, that is all inclusive, nappies, food, outings.

I have 4 under 5's (with a variation) 3 of them being fulltime.

I then have two after school for 2 hours.(I dont charge any retainer once at fulltime school, and have never heard of any CM charging when at school.

£160.00 per day.

That is 48 weeks a year so it appaears I make a good living.

By the time I paid all my expenses last year ( my mileage alone for the school run is 14 pound a day, ) I was left with just under 10,000.

And yes I could charge for food, outings and nappies, but then I would have to put that down as income, and not a expense against my tax, the way I do it, the taxman pays for the expenses really, so better for myself and the parents.

[anewyear]

"A CM is self employed, so in my opinion parents should only be paying for when the service is available. I didn't charge for bank holidays if I wasn't prepared to work. I wouldn't charge if I was sick or on holiday. I would charge if the service was available and the parent chose not to use it (their own family holiday, for example"

Same here, but I dont charge for BH's as I not prepared to work them.
I also charge full fees if the child is sick and not able to come to the setting.