Not to think that childminders are underpaid?

[miniwedge]

Last childminder charged £4.50 per hour, she had three over eights full time, ie retainer for school hours, after and before school care, full hours in school holidays. Plus three pre schoolers at the same rate.
My average monthly term time bill was £400, holidays was ave three times that.
So as a self-employed person she was actually doing pretty well for herself.

Surely childminding is like any other profession? Its regulated and you have to pay for exams, just like say a gas fitter, you have to have the right equipment, just like a mobile mechanic say, you have to make sure you pitch for enough work to cover your financial needs, just like a mobile hairdresser?

So, am I being unreasonable to think that it is just the same as any other self employed profession in that if you have enough work you can do well, if you don't it leads to a lean time but the basic underlying wage is not the issue.

I am fully prepared for my first mums net flaming and have my new name ready if necessary. ;-)

Disclaimer; I have no issue with a childminder earning well, I am not posting to be inflammatory but I am interested to see if it's a point of view that anyone else has considered.

[ohyaychristmas]

BTW I totally forgot to factor food in those expenses. So add a lot onto that if CM providing food.

[chabbychic]

You are allowed to educate other children? That's weird.

[prettyfly1]

They are restricted by ofsted to ensure that quality of care doesnt get affected by a childminder taking on more then she can cope with.

I pay five pounds an hour, and am in herts. I do think its a lot but is average for around here and my cm is amazing. I have her two days a week and honestly she is worth every penny and a lot more besides. Having had some very bad childcare in the past, I am so grateful for someone who I trust, who works hard and give a great standard of care that I wouldnt consider it expensive in that sense at all.

[DancingOnMyBladder]

None of the minders round here charge a fee for school children whilst they are in school. I assume they would call this a retainer but they aren't retainer any place for them, surely?

[DancingOnMyBladder]

*retaining

[chabbychic]

No you'd only have a retainer for a child who attended preschool in the morning. (I don't do this tho)

[anewyear]

Ok, Im a childminder, in my part of Hertfordshire, CM charge anywhere between £3.50 - £5.50,
I charge £4 per hour, business has been slow in the last 18mths or so,
I have 4 after schoolers, when I say after school,
that is it,
I have no children during the day,
So belive me I dont earn a forune.
The money I earn also helps pays the bills, mortgage, elecric, gas, council tax, school dinner money, clothes/shoes for the kids etc etc
IT IS NOT pin money as some seem to think.

[ohyaychristmas]

Flying, I'm not sure how many of us (home edding CMs) there are. I know of a few others. It can be a great way for HE families to deal with the issue of needing a second income. Ofsted have been very supportive in my case. I have spoken to my inspector as well as head office about the particular issues, legal and otherwise, on several occasions.

[ohyaychristmas]

Chabby, how is it weird to 'educate' other children?

Is it weird that we 'educate' under-3s? (I think it is, lol)

I think it's much less weird to call it 'education' for over-5s.

However, at the end of the day, and as far as Ofsted is concerned, for over-5s it's 'childcare.'

HE parents have a right to educate their children any way they see fit. Childcare, and when it is received, and whether or not it has added 'educational' value, is irrelevant to HE.

[chabbychic]

I know you educate your own children, but not others of school age during the day surely?

[thefirstMrsDeVere]

Its about £3.25 per hour round here which is significantly under the minimum wage isnt it?

I wouldnt be a childminder, not now. Not with all the courses and paper work. Its low paid and low status work. Its a really important job but seems to be really undervalued. Its seen as a housewifey way of earning a bit of pin money. When in fact CM are in charge of the most important things in the world and enabling others to go to work.

In common with many boroughs we have a posh part and and a common part. Where I live the CMs charge the low rate so all the mums from the posh part bring their kids up here because its cheaper. Of course they would, who wouldnt? But then they sneer at the surroundings and the sort of children their kids are mixing with.

Not all of them of course but I have heard some awful things. I have also seen some bloody awful examples of CMs with no notion of confidentiality speaking crap about the childrens' parents and domestic issues.

Years ago CMs were expected to just take the mindees where they would normally go i.e. to the shops and visiting their friends,they did the housework and carried on as if they were looking after their own kids.
Now its very different. I think the pay and status should reflect that.

God that was a ramble. Sorry. tired.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

I am a childminder and to put it simply, if I fill my places, yes it is good money, if I can't fill all my places, it's not good money.

I can work 9 til 5, 5 days a week with one child and it's not really worth working. I can work the same hours with my places all filled up and it's good. If I can then get school runs it's great.

The reality is, I can't fill all my places all the time, it's very up and down.

And the expenses are really high. Parents (quite rightly) want good quality care. They want us to be out and about, going places, doing activities. Can you imagine paying for a family day out every day. Plus food, travel, extra heating, lighting, water bills. Toys. Art and craft supplies, the list is bloody endless.

All our training is done in our spare time, where as a nursery nurse would get a paid day off work to do it. Ditto paperwork.

I'm not complaining, it's not terrible, but we are not showering in money as some people seem to think and it's damn hard work, I earn that money and I shouldn't (and won't) feel guilty about having it.

[flyingvisit]

Wow. Our cm have waiting lists here.

[ohyaychristmas]

Chabby, the answer to your question depends on a) how you define education and b) what you negotiate with the HE parents who contract you.

You could take HE children on museum trips or to libraries...do structured activities like science experiments or art...supervise maths or English lessons for children doing that kind of structured work...find various ways to support or facilitate the interests of unschooled children. You could also deliver a 'curriculum' - from the tin, or of your own design.

[noodle69]

'
All our training is done in our spare time, where as a nursery nurse would get a paid day off work to do it. Ditto paperwork.'

As a nursery nurse most courses we do at our place are done out of hours and we never get paid for it. We do learning books at home and it is expected to do it out of work hours for free as there isnt enough time in the day when you are working with the children. Thats typical of settings I have worked in both now and in the past

[Littlepurpleprincess]

Wow. Our cm have waiting lists here.

Lucky them.

[lovelyopaque]

It is under minimum wage per hour because there is an assumption that several parents make up the wage, in the same way that a teacher is not paid per pupil, but paid for the whole job.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

Noodle69, my experience of working as a nursery nurse was that I got paid for training days.

We then took in turns to do our paperwork in the nursery (only one member of staff was allowed to be doing paperwork at any one time), there was plenty of time to get this done. Maybe you could suggest this in your nursery?

The thing with childminding is that's not possible, I do everything. There's no-one to fall back on. I am the manager, nursery nurse, assistant, cook, cleaner and accountant. I'm not complaining about that or saying nursery work is easier (I HATED working in a nursery) but I do earn what money I have and I wish people would stop complaining about the cost as if it's the childminder's ripping them off.

[ohyaychristmas]

I would be curious to know how much per hour a childminder could earn before people began saying she was charging too much. I don't mean how much per hour per child, but how much per hour period. What do people think is a reasonable salary for someone looking after, say, 3 children for 10 hours a day. A nanny where I live would earn about £30k (net) but not be accountable to Ofsted etc.

[noodle69]

There wouldnt be enough time in ours I dont think as we are working with predominantly social services referrals and it is often very busy. We dont have cleaners, cooks, or anyone for the admin we just do it all ourselves.

It does take a lot of work and we are often there on weekends and evenings to do painting, cleaning, paperwork etc. We also have at least one meeting a week to do ECAT, Forest Schools, Thrive, Letters and Sounds etc.

'What do people think is a reasonable salary for someone looking after, say, 3 children for 10 hours a day.'


At my work I look after on my own up to 8 children and we get minimum wage for it and the manager who gets £6.55. We never get overtime or paid for meetings.

I think it all depends on the area for instance I think like I think £5 + for a childminder is very expensive but it all depends on where you are in the country I suppose. I do think its a hard one with this subject as there are so many different prices for childcare around the country some people will be on a good wage as childcarers and some wont.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

That's a very interesting question ohyaychristmas, it is oddly undervalued so I don't think it would be much. I also think it would be swayed by how much parent's can afford to pay, which is a whole different kettle of fish....

[Littlepurpleprincess]

noodle69, your post shows just how hard childcare workers work and how undervalued we are.

[LoveRedShoes]

I worked as a CM to gain experience working with children (I didn't have my own at the time), the long-term plan being to open a nursery.
I was in a london borough and I would say 90pc of CMs had waiting lists and were charging nearly 6pounds, and that was a good few years ago.

I would second that GOOD CMs are very much worth the higher fees - after all you are leaving your child, not your car. They are not just there to be babysat, but educated and cared for safely and according to VERY strict and far reaching OFSTED guidelines. It is a HUGE responsibility to care for another persons child in a professional capacity.
I think a lot of parents have no idea about the training, house modifications, curriculum requirements, OFSTED paperwork, inspections, overheads etc... involved in childminding. They see the 6 pounds per hour and seem to think the CM keeps that all for herself.

Very few childminders operate at maximum capacity, either by choice or because their own children take up the spaces. I would also not take my own child to a CM who filled spaces to maximum capacity.

One last point - what REALLY annoyed me was the vast difference in quality between the CMs settings. I felt very justified charging top prices on the basis I made all (homemade and organic) food, the setting was well stocked and spotless and the children got 100% of my time, were taught EYFS and had the sort of life they would have at home (if not better, as I was being paid to be a good carer). I hated visiting other CMs charging the same when clearly they made little effort and were fairly horrid to the children and gave little entertainment or learning, feeding them no frills junk.

It depends what you want for your children. I would happily pay so my CM felt valued and happy, as I do believe in the old saying - pay peanuts and get monkeys. But I would have to be sure I was using a good minder to warrant the fees.

[hairyfairylights]

"At my work I look after on my own up to 8 children and we get minimum wage for it and the manager who gets £6.55. We never get overtime or paid for meetings"

I think that is truly awful, and we desperately undervalue those who look after children profesionally.

[LoveRedShoes]

The wages of nursery nurses are absolutely shocking for the work they do.