Not to think that childminders are underpaid?

[miniwedge]

Last childminder charged £4.50 per hour, she had three over eights full time, ie retainer for school hours, after and before school care, full hours in school holidays. Plus three pre schoolers at the same rate.
My average monthly term time bill was £400, holidays was ave three times that.
So as a self-employed person she was actually doing pretty well for herself.

Surely childminding is like any other profession? Its regulated and you have to pay for exams, just like say a gas fitter, you have to have the right equipment, just like a mobile mechanic say, you have to make sure you pitch for enough work to cover your financial needs, just like a mobile hairdresser?

So, am I being unreasonable to think that it is just the same as any other self employed profession in that if you have enough work you can do well, if you don't it leads to a lean time but the basic underlying wage is not the issue.

I am fully prepared for my first mums net flaming and have my new name ready if necessary. ;-)

Disclaimer; I have no issue with a childminder earning well, I am not posting to be inflammatory but I am interested to see if it's a point of view that anyone else has considered.

[ThePrisoner]

I hate any general "let's bash someone for earning/charging too much or too little" comments.

I work long hours as a childminder (currently 7.30am - 6.00pm) - those are my "paid" hours. Over and above that are the unpaid hours which infringe big-time on my family life - training courses, unbelievable amounts of paperwork (meeting Ofsted criteria, group and individual planning for the children etc), shopping, preparation for following day/week .....

Yes, I earn good money, but my expenses (which is money I pay out and do not recoup) run into £1000s. I regard my job as a proper profession - I do not have small children of my own any more, so don't do it to accommodate my own family, although my house looks like I do.

I work hard to earn my money, and would really hate to think that any of my parents begrudge what they pay. I don't earn if I don't work, so have no fixed, guaranteed income. I have also been told I have less entitlements, as a SE person, when I become a pensioner.

Childminders can be so different to each other - different methods of working, different attitudes to everything - be very very pleased if you have one that you are happy with!

[ohyaychristmas]

Go for it Saturday. Let us know how you get on.

Would kill for 60 miles to myself...

[turnitup]

I am a CM and like others have said if you fill all your spaces and work 50 hours a week, yes you can earn good money.

However there are

• plenty of overheads
  
• loads of paperwork to do in your own time
  
• tidying up etc outside your hours
  

Plus you are running your own business so you dont neccessarily have a guaranteed income.

On a good week the max I can earn is about £800 (before tax)

[HalfCaff]

Every job has it's pros and cons: CMing may not be the best-paid but it has some huge and obvious attractions for people with their own dc, which is why it is a popular choice of career for people, some of whom are highly qualified and experienced in other professions, once they become parents. I know a teacher, a TV producer and a PA who have become CMs.
As for the wage, it varies enormously depending on local conditions, not just 'south-east' or whatever, e.g. in London £5 an hour is not unusual, in Cambs £3.50 an hour if you are lucky - my friend was without work for a year after moving there having made a good living in SE London.

[hatesponge]

I dont think overheads are necessarily the same in every case, tbh.

Petrol costs were mentioned - none of the CMs I have had used their cars to transport children around, as we live in an urban area and schools etc are within easy walking distance. I would imagine this would be the case for most CMs other than those in rural areas.

With respect to crafts, my DC only drew pictures/made things etc at one CM. At the others they generally played with toys/games. So not every CM is going to have the same initial cost for craft activities if thats not something they do?

[shoshe]

And by retainer I mean I dont charge anything for the hours they are at school, just the two hours they do.

If the are on holiday I charge for the full day if that is what they use, if the dont use me during the holidays I charge half their normal fee, to retain their space for after their holiday. ( Mine all come in the holidays as they are siblings of my fulltime children.

[saturdaynightpants]

I get paid £130 a day in a senior position at a university. My drive is 60 miles return. My work hours are unsociable - i work all night and weekends.
I may childmind.

[shoshe]

Sorry, meant 14 miles a day (7 miles each way)

[OptimistS]

My CM is slightly better off than me. She earns less than my salary, but because of TCs and the fact she is not paying for childcare or a work commute, she comes out with a greater disposable income than me. Her fees are a similar level to what I am paying for nursery.

Paying childcare costs absolutely cripples me and there are months where I am glad the children are fed at nursery/CM because there isn't enough food in the house. HOWEVER, I think my CM and my nursery deserve every single penny they are paid, and if I could afford it I would happily pay more. My children love both settings and are happy and thriving. That's priceless.

What's really needed is a debate on how childcare is paid for, not whether or not it is value for money. The provision of childcare is a feminist and a social issue, not one that only affects individual families. As a result, the solution IMO needs to come in part from society. Greater subsidy and tax relief would be a good place to start to ease the burden on parents while not cutting the CMs earnings.

[saturdaynightpants]

feck me thats cheap insurance

[saturdaynightpants]

Can I ask what you mean by a retainer?

[saturdaynightpants]

£14 a day? Thos kids must spend a lot of time in the car

[anewyear]

"A CM is self employed, so in my opinion parents should only be paying for when the service is available. I didn't charge for bank holidays if I wasn't prepared to work. I wouldn't charge if I was sick or on holiday. I would charge if the service was available and the parent chose not to use it (their own family holiday, for example"

Same here, but I dont charge for BH's as I not prepared to work them.
I also charge full fees if the child is sick and not able to come to the setting.

[shoshe]

I charge £4.00 per hour in Dorset, that is all inclusive, nappies, food, outings.

I have 4 under 5's (with a variation) 3 of them being fulltime.

I then have two after school for 2 hours.(I dont charge any retainer once at fulltime school, and have never heard of any CM charging when at school.

£160.00 per day.

That is 48 weeks a year so it appaears I make a good living.

By the time I paid all my expenses last year ( my mileage alone for the school run is 14 pound a day, ) I was left with just under 10,000.

And yes I could charge for food, outings and nappies, but then I would have to put that down as income, and not a expense against my tax, the way I do it, the taxman pays for the expenses really, so better for myself and the parents.

[hatesponge]

PlanetEarth - you're right, however theres no restriction on over 8s (certainly none that I'm aware of), my former CM has/had at least 2 of these.

[saturdaynightpants]

Im not sure what overheads my cm would have. She doesnt do day sessions so its only after school care. There seems to be some craft stuff about but they dont go out. So Id say after school snacks and craft gear would be it.

[PlanetEarth]

OK, just found this:
"Ofsted limits the number of children in the care of the childminder at any one time to 6 children aged 0 ? 8 years, of which no more than three can be under 5 years of age. (Ofsted also stipulates that a childminder may only care for one child less than 12 months old "

[PlanetEarth]

hatesponge, I thought there were limits on how many kids they could have? Say 3 pre-schoolers or 4 older kids? Am I wrong on this?

[hatesponge]

My recent experience is that childminders certainly in the area where I live are not underpaid. I wouldn't say they are raking it in, but I think there is the opportunity to earn a decent living - certainly I don't know any poor childminders.

In our area there are not many childminders. Demand exceeds supply and every CM, excellent or average, has a waiting list. In consequence all are full. When my DSs attended a CM (in the last year for DS2, in 2009 for DS1 and 2) their CM had 5 or more children for before and afterschool care, plus a further 3 for the entire day - as they were under school age. In school hols, she had all of them all day. At £3.50/4 per hour it doesn't take much working out she was earning a substantial sum. I should add that the children only got 1 meal per day, plus the occasional snack. The babies brought their own food. The children did trips out but only to local parks. I think it unlikely that her overheads were significant.

One thing I would add - and I mentioned this on another thread earlier - is that when I first went back to work when DS2 (now 12) was a baby, I was paying his CM £70 per week. We lived in a different area to where we live now, but still London outskirts (Southeast rather than East). Charges locally now would be £200, nearly 3 times what I was paying in 1999. My salary has increased in that period, but it certainly hasn't trebled!

[PlanetEarth]

I wouldn't say it's her gross income either. Gross income = the £9 minus expenses, expenses don't count as income. Net income is then gross income minus tax & NI.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

If a CM is earning £3 per hour and has 3 children, then yes, her hourly wage is £9

No it's not. That's her gross income, her wages are her net income.

[PinkCanary]

While my DD was still a preschooler I was otherwise full, with 2 other full timers and older children before / after school and in the holidays. I took only 2 weeks holiday (unpaid) per year and charged £3 p/h (still do! Market forces). When I worked out my annual accounts I found that after expenses, when I took into account the 60 hours a week I spent child facing, plus the extra time I spent completing paperwork and attending training it turned out I was actually earning £1.18 for each hour of my time.

Only because my DD was at home could I justify working for so little. Now that cohort of children are all of school age I earn a far better wage per hour for the out of school hours I childmind.

However, as I have no f/t space available I've only taken 1 preschool child on since September. 18 hours a week for £54 before expenses. It's not viable to continue. And I am looking for alternative work within school hours where I can at least earn minimum wage.

[fedupofnamechanging]

If a CM is earning £3 per hour and has 3 children, then yes, her hourly wage is £9, but she is working 3x as hard for it!

It is a huge responsibility being solely responsible for other peoples children and the demands on a CM these days in terms of paperwork and training are huge. These are not reflected in the salary. I have been a CM in the past and would never do it again.

I cannot understand why some parents resent paying more for their CM than they would for a cleaner. I echo the phrase used earlier, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

That said, I think parents should consider really carefully what they are agreeing to when they sign a contract. Reading other threads on MN, I think some parents are getting seriously ripped off. A CM is self employed, so in my opinion parents should only be paying for when the service is available. I didn't charge for bank holidays if I wasn't prepared to work. I wouldn't charge if I was sick or on holiday. I would charge if the service was available and the parent chose not to use it (their own family holiday, for example).