to only want people on this thread who agree that school setting research topics for a 6 year old

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is lazy teaching

as a teacher you do not set homework for children that they cannot acheive without parents doing it for them - you set homework for them that they can acheive with parental support

it is two different things

and this time I am going to say something

you get that they are six though? They should be playing and maybe adding 2+2, because they are six.

And just because YOU say every 2 months doesn't mean OP doesn't mean every week. And some people have more than one child at school.

Why should they be just be doing 2+2 at six and not learning about the wider world? I find it interesting that so many posters on here are quick to point that other countries with higher literacy rates than ours do not teach children to read and write until they are much older. But, it seems to be forgotten that what children at age 6 are so often doing in many of these countries is finding out about the world around them. This is one of the great shames that our educational system has list sight of, and which many of those countries with higher literacy rates have held on to. And, at risk of repeating myself - we mustn't assume that research has to be literacy based. All research means is to find out. A child can do that through conversations, looking at pictures, listening to an adult read. All perfectly valid methods for a six year old to research. If we as a country can go back to discovering this, maybe our country's literacy rates will improve!

"Hoemwork is NOT compulsory at primary school, and I would kick off if my child was sanctioned for non-completion. I don't believe that's commonplace either."

Compulsory by stealth.

It is compulsory by stealth if it is overtly, or covertly indicated to either the children, or the parents that there is an expectation of completion despite the technically, voluntary status due to the rulebook.

If that is not the case and the teacher is very careful not to let disapproval leak out in the case of non completion, then it is a non issue.

Parents can chose to not do it safe in the knowledge that their child isn't going to start to get jittery cos "Mrs Roberts will get cross "

RE homework isn't officially compulsory here, although from the terrified faces of my son and his peers their teacher obviously had other ideas.

It was a case of compulsory by stealth because coercion made a mockery of any illusion of voluntary.

Sarah - there are 30 children in the class, and each of those has at least one parent. If I send very simple research h/w home, I am hoping that the one parent will spend 20 minutes with their one child to find 3 facts or some key words.

Even with the best will in the world, it would be very difficult to believe that 30 6/7 year old children could have the reading, organisational or scanning skills to find information independently, without making unnacceptable demands on the teacher.

We always time in a w/e + a couple of days to complete the h/w, so people have plenty of time to do it.

It's not 'fobbing' anything off on the parents. It's getting them involved in what their child is doing at school. It just involves a bit of talking and a bit of finding out.

And of course I was going to make a comment about the manpower, because it's a fact that an activity like this would be impossible to differentiate and run with 30 very young children, several of whom are very poor readers.

I don't really get the final point you're trying to make? That we shouldn't bother at all?

Sarah - I really don't blame a child of 6 for not doing homework, and I will not hold it against them for ever more, or treat them any differently to the others.
In fact I feel sorry for them at having to make up elaborate excuses to cover themselves at such a young age.

Even with the odd worksheet h/w I give, I wouldn't expect all of the children to do it, and certainly don't tell them off if they don't.

In upper KS2, the situation is different because the homework becomes the child's responsibility.

Have a SN child and then you'll know what lazy teaching is all about.

You will also truly understand the concept of education ONLY happening at home.

TBH I am on the fence with your comment OP. I do not think that research is beyond 6 yr olds. It is not even beyond my 2yr old. It's what children are good at before its stamped out of them.

I do however, believe that homework during the primary years should not be set SO THAT the child can continue to explore their environment, childhood and research naturally.

of course they can learn about anything. But not with prescribed homework. Because they are six. Thats six, in case its not clear, not sixteen.
Its a bizarrely british notion to hothouse such young children, and such little results come from it. Every year you slip down the education rankings.

Actually, in my last post I didn't really mean lazy teaching, but I did mean inadequate!

"SarahItaly - please tell me you'll be teaching at 'A School Near Me' soon - please!! Actually, better still - is there anyway for you to teach teachers???"

LOL, Fat lot of good I'd be to you love, my primary subject is teaching English, as a foreign language, and I think your kids probably don't have much need of that. With all the budget cuts (here and I presume your side of the alps too), teacher training income alone can't even sustain my high heel habit anymore, let alone feed me. Used to be good money in it, but not so much recently.

Besides my husband would have the mother of all hissy fits if I tried to crowbar him out of Italy ( =

I actually fancy Stoat, in a teacher lust sort of way, even though we don't agree on this issue. I read her lesson plan and could have cried that I can't clone her and populate our local schools with her. (I'd help do the ITC bit at school and bully the bidelle to come give a hand)

Learning about penguins at aged 7 in my area would be, one solid hour of diction, at high speed, of very dry text about the world's most boring penguin facts.

Homework would be take illegible copy of dictation home, (that is missing half the words and makes no sense) so you can learn it by heart (or not, cos it is illegible and makes no sense) in one night of hell. Next day the whole class will line up and (fail) to vomit it back on the teacher parrot fashion, one by one, so another lesson is done without breaking into a sweat and nobody has to put their back into planning anything. Or teaching anything. Ever.

See if I knew that the work that we struggled over at home, that I fought ds to do, that robbed us of a happy evening or weekend doing something we both find interesting (and what a strange idea that just because you object to school set work you don't spend any time exploring the world with your child) was then going to get pretty much ignored by the teacher I would be even more angry. Oh and our school (standard English community primary school) was very clear that homework was not in any way voluntary. Three pieces missing and the child got deprived of a playtime and the parents sent a stiff letter home. When we challenged this we were told that we'd signed the parent-school agreement (also non voluntary) and that was that.

stoat you are a trained teacher, and you know exactly what the task is, as you have set it. The children are at school to learn and the resources are there. Most parents have more than one child. Some families have just the one adult. If the adults work then evenings are pretty much out for doing much more than reading to their child (I used to get home with the children at 7pm, enough time for the children to relax, have a bath and read and that's about it). Late in the evening is not a good time for a child (or parent for that matter) to do research activities of any intensity. The weekends are full of boring stuff like housework, and then IMO should be free for family activities, many of which will provide far more learning than copying out some blurb from wikipeadia. Plus I've not been trained to motivate my child to do something he doesn't want to do and finds very hard (both reading and writing when he was 6-8).

Three facts about a penguin, fine. Write about 7 robots not fine at all.

Oh yes, the fucking parent/school agreement.

uniform IS ompulsory if you have signed a chit to say so, as is homework, and there is not one school in this town that doesn't use that little chits to their full advantage to stop you challanging anything.

SarahItaly - how the hell are you surviving in that environment??

(OH I was never suggesting you be a TA - more a Teachers Teacher which of course (if someone would make me TheBoss) would be well paid and you could afford all the JC's your heart desired!!)

Nooka some teachers think that unless the parents are directed or forced by the teacher, to do homework with the children, the children will just be shoved in the cupboard under the stairs and ignored by their parents and it's beyond their comprehension that the children & their parents may enjoy other interests/hobbies/reading/exercise/relaxing together without fighting over doing homework that neither the child, the parent nor the teacher are interested in.

This is a very interesting thread. We have had our first research homework this year and I have already started a thread because I am a bit unsure about what is expected.
If any of you knowledgeable lot would care to look here it would be great.

Personally I have found it very time consuming but fascinating. I have enjoyed learning new stuff with DS and seeing what sparks his interest. I have not enjoyed trying to get him to reread his almost illegibly jotted notes and turn them into something he'll be able to understand if he needs to look at them in class.

The biggest problem was finding time to work on it when he was in the mood and younger DD was in the mood for keeping herself busy.

This is not he biggest deal ever, and I think Stoat makes some good points about hoe to do h/w well.

I teach at my son's school, and have been a bit shocked on occasion at his home work.

However - before we say teaching abroad is so fantastic - my brother - who lives in Riga and is a very good teacher there, would not be allowed to teach in the UK because of his criminal record (NOT for child molestation, or any offence against a child).
CRB working well then. A well qualified and excellent teacher not allowed to work in the UK due to an unrelated offence. Brilliant.

Excuse typos!

Catno - ridiculous isn't it :(

The thing is that Stoat is making her point about 20mins a half term homework and that is not what most parents are facing from schools.

The bugbear with our school is the amount of homework and the type of homework - other than that it's a lovely school. But honest to god they think all homes have the entire contents of HobbyCraft & Sewing4You in their Arts & Crafts room along with limitless hours to make all manner of things practically overnight. At 4,5,6 they should be able to play and take part in other hobbies/interests when they get out of school. We are talking infants school here - at what point did reading each night and the odd bit of math, spelling etc turn into this craft fest? As for the 'research projects' - it wouldn't be so bad if it was penguins - you know, things that the kids are at least likely to have a book about - but fgs how many homes have books about tudor houses aimed at a 5 year old?

Schools shouldn't be able to get you over a barrel by making you sign their 'terms & conditions' which go against the guidelines.

"Even with the best will in the world, it would be very difficult to believe that 30 6/7 year old children could have the reading, organisational or scanning skills to find information independently, without making unnacceptable demands on the teacher."

Which rather begs the question, why did you design a lesson element that was totally beyond the skill set of the kids if you felt that lack placed such unreasonable demands on the the person responsible for putting it into action ?

30 isn't a magic number that defines the sole line between acceptable and unacceptable demands.

I could have coped with the penguin research easily as a parent, he'd have probably come in with a full blown Prezi cos I have been known to get over enthusiastic where a tech aspect is involved. I have one child to deal with and that element is right up my street.

Unless of course you set it when I had a heavy week of evening work where I get home in time to sneak a kiss goodnight and nothing else. In which case my son would have been stuck with my husband, who can neither speak English very well (reads it worse still) and tries to use a mouse like a TV remote control.

And then my son would have been automatically excluded from a significant aspect of a whole class activity.

He'd live. So would I ...unless I though any "disapproving of your lackadaisical excuse making parents" was leaking through. And then I'd be viewing the matter in an entirely different light.

I think it is bit of an issue if a teacher is going to set homework where there are skills gaps, when they are genuinely unable to comprehend how anybody, other than themselves, might find that aspect an unacceptable demand depending on their circumstances at any given time.

"SarahItaly - how the hell are you surviving in that environment??"

After three years I pulled him out and now I home ed (bilingually)in the mornings and at 1pm play pass the parcel and hand him over to my husband who manages his hectic social life in the pm\early eve.

I just couldn't see any other way considering that the private schools near me are much the same as the state schools and the huge volume of homework meant there simply wasn't any time to spare to teach him on the side myself to keep him up to speed.

It hasn't done much for my popularity in several staffrooms (=

I'm pleased your DS has been taken out of that environment :)

How do you cope working in it?

Stoat, I would agree with you that most worksheet homework assigned to 6 yos is done or corrected by the parent, and that is my main objection to it - I see absolutely no point to it. It deputises the frazzled and untrained parent to act as teacher. However, the same objection applies equally to the project homework imo. Plus I don't see the point of trying to teach children how to find or organise information after they have (or their parents have) already found and organised the information at home. In any case I don't think these skills are within the reach of most 6 yos. And I can't imagine anything more soul-destroying or less conducive to fostering a spirit of inquiry in young children than teaching them the skill of non-fiction writing using headings. Much may be produced in the way of posters on walls, but to what end?

Why not use whatever resources the school has available and teach the skills there (if they are teachable to children some of whom can't read yet)? There is pointless duplication of effort involved when parents do the research and organising of the facts at home and then you try to teach them the skills afterwards in school, not to mention frustration on the part of parents and possible friction between children and parents over homework, tension and anxiety if the parent can't find information or if the child can't remember the directions - and all for something that isn't even going to be looked at by the teacher ? I'd be more than annoyed if I thought this was the fate of any work I had had to do on a busy night or any work I had to prod a DC to do, as Nooka says.

What is the point? If homework is not going to be assessed, why do you assign it? People have better things to do with their time.

The topic wall may look impressive, but is it really used as a resource by the children? And if it is, are they learning basic principles or bare facts about the topic? One robot is just the same as another, basically, though they have different forms. Seen one, seen 'em all. Same goes for penguins - same habits and habitat.

'Even with the best will in the world, it would be very difficult to believe that 30 6/7 year old children could have the reading, organisational or scanning skills to find information independently, without making unacceptable demands on the teacher.'

• This really means that the assignment is pointless though - why not teach something the children are capable of learning? You are wasting everyone's time here.

'We always time in a w/e + a couple of days to complete the h/w, so people have plenty of time to do it.'

• There's never enough time in some families (and again, what's the point of teaching skills that are not age or stage appropriate?) If it's difficult for the trained teacher to do it in class, why do you think the untrained parent with many other things on her plate can manage it? OK, parents don't have 30 children to deal with, but teaching 30 children is your job, while the parent's job encompasses many tasks besides supervising homework, possibly including a demanding full time job of her own. And it's not right to expect a parent to have to give up weekend time for homework. Parents work hard all week.

'It's not 'fobbing' anything off on the parents. It's getting them involved in what their child is doing at school. It just involves a bit of talking and a bit of finding out.'

• Surely 'a bit of talking and a bit of finding out' is the teacher's job and not the parents' though?. The parents are probably doing plenty of talking and plenty of finding out, just not on the topics the teacher assigns, and informally. Plus you wrongly assume that parents are not 'involved', whatever that means, or not interested; I have to say I suspect attention-seeking whenever I encounter a teacher who is trying to rope parents into doing her job like this, the teacher as diva.

'And of course I was going to make a comment about the manpower, because it's a fact that an activity like this would be impossible to differentiate and run with 30 very young children, several of whom are very poor readers.'

• It is utterly pointless to try to teach poor readers to find and then organise information and write non-fiction using headings, so yes, you really are fobbing the work off on the parents when you send it home instead of designing an activity that can be differentiated and run in the whole class. It must be extremely frustrating for the parents of the non-readers or the poor readers to be faced with a task like this.

The whole exercise is inexplicable. As Sarahitaly has pointed out, why are you assigning work that involves skills that you couldn't reasonably expect the 6 yos to learn, in circumstances where it is impossible to do the job properly?

well said mathsanxiety

I have very much enjoyed this discussion - and applaud the viewpoints of the teachers who seem to understand what a 6 year old is like and what family life is like.

The type of comments that most concern me are the ones where the intimation is that we are not committed or effective or good parents if we choose to not do children's homework for them - I think this is a fall-back guilt-inducing statement that in this world of competitive parenting is self-defeating

I hope that some of these comments / opinions have got through to teachers and parents who believe that setting work that cannot be acheived with minimal guidance at home is not an acceptable educational tool

By Sarahitaly: "I think a good rule of thumb is, if a project looks like a hassle to do in class cos it...risks being time consuming in practice"

This explains why Year 3 are given half a term to make papier-mache Grecian urns AT HOME! The teachers kindly provide clear instructions and there is much competitive parental pot making, which makes me . The children then paint and decorate the urns in school.

And also explains why after I DC1 made one last year, this year DC2 painted it white and took it back into school. It will be recycled again next year, no doubt, by DC3.

I don't think DC2 and DC3 have missed a fundamental learning opportunity.

I hate the kind of projects for young children that involve a lot of background work by the parents just to source materials. For example, we've had "The history of Halloween" and "Modern Egypt" - information on the web is largely irrelevant (e.g. ancient Egypt) or not at a level that kids can understand, which means the parent "translating" it. How is the child benefitting from this? They are not the ones doing the bulk of the work.

If teachers would at least provide materials or lists to web sites it would save a lot of parental drudge work.

This discussion has been interesting and, as a teacher (and a parent of a 6-year-old) I'd encourage every parent to raise the issue of homework with their class rep/school governors. Teachers set homework because they have been led to believe that parents want it. If the parents let the school know that this is an out-of-date perception then the school will have to respond, perhaps by conducting a survey or by trying something new. If the school isn't told of the unhappiness then the teachers (who have probably been directed to set homework) will continue to do what is expected of them.

I can't think of any primary teachers that I know who actively set homework as a way of interfering with family life/trying to control parents/upset children whose homes don't have the resources to complete it.

As I said in my previous post, I always set optional homework and there really is no pressure on any child/parent to complete it (I even send a note home explaining this and I explain it in class during a session on Learning Logs). I also send home information and all the materials a child would like to use and give up my lunchtimes so that those children who are desperate to do a project (and less than keen on being in the playground) can use the computers (not Google or Wiki though!), books and me as a resource. If a child is keen on research but doesn't want to miss out on playtime then I nearly always find some time during the school day for them to work on their project. If a child is fascinated and enthused by a topic then who am I to stand in their way? Finishing Literacy/Numeracy early in order to undertake some research isn't going to ruin a 9-year-old's life chances.