to want to bellow "When will you all LEARN???" <sensitive - about the headline story>

[Alambil]

Again - a warning; this is about the headlines about Birmingham. DO NOT read if you don't want to.

I just want to yell at someone "WHEN will you LEARN?"

There are enough serious case reviews now that all have common themes of possible reasons and ways to avoid such events occuring.... but still it happens and still it comes to the headlines.

WHY? it is SO wrong and SO unfair

Did anyone read about that lady who had a letter accusing her of kerb crawling sent to her employer. It assumed she was a man and was sent based on the sighting of her car in a notorious area although she was there legitimally). She said if she had been a man she'd always have faced suspicion.

So stuff the no smoke crap

This thread reads like OP wants us to know their importance in the field of nasty child crime yet reeks of ignorance

RC, I was just reading that.

Disgraceful and lazy policing.

charliesmommy no the answer is not none.

A person working with very young children should be (and in a good nursery/school etc would be) subject to more checks than CRB and educational qualifications.

Safeguarding procedures will not prevent it happening everytime, but will prevent it happening most of the time.

There is nothing you can do if the person hasn't caused suspicion as you say, but if staff were better trained and more aware of safegurading issues, perhaps he would have caused concern. It is unlikely that someone behaves perfectly normally for 18 months and then rapes a baby on a whim!

It is not about recruitment processes, it is about the procedures within a childcare setting i.e. not assuming that because someone has passed recruitment procedures that there will never be a risk.

The attitude that there is nothing we can do until someone has commited a crime is very, very unhelpful and foolish. I hope you don't work in childcare.

Another point is this person hasn't been convicted of anything yet
This is all idle speculation we know nothing about this case.

"A person working with very young children should be (and in a good nursery/school etc would be) subject to more checks than CRB and educational qualifications".

I totally agree, but even if all those checks are clear, it does not mean that abuse will never occur.

It only means that the person has never been caught.

You cannot assume that everyone is a paedophile, because they most certainly arent, so what can you do?

Everyone knows that the vast majority of abuse happens within the family, and you dont get a CRB check or any other when you spend time with your neice/grandson etc..

A person working with very young children should be (and in a good nursery/school etc would be) subject to more checks than CRB and educational qualifications

Such as? I mean apart from the enhanced CRB what other checks would they (in a good nursery/school) be subjected to specifically?

charliesmommy

'even if all those checks are clear, it does not mean that abuse will never occur'

No it doesn't which is why staff should be trained in spotting and reporting 'unusual' or 'problematic' behaviour, why safegurading should be at the front of people's minds and why the 'it'll never happen here' attitude must stop.

You cannot and should not assume that everyone is a paedophile, but you should, if you work with young children, be aware that it happens and that it could be your work mate, it could happen at your nursery.

I've worked in a nursery and if abuse had happened there, it would have been the fault of nursery staff/managment and lack of procedure/training. They were not doing their best to safeguard the children there and in that respect I agree with the OP's 'when will they learn?'.

Abuse within the family is a different issue, a more complex issue and not what is being discussed within this thread.

mutznutz there should be ongoing checks, with regard to behaviour/conduct, and not simply checks when recruiting. There is a lot of training available, with regard to child protection, but is not always taken up or in some local authorities is not offered due to lack of funding etc. There are steps that can be taken beyond a CRB.

Oh and references should be thoroughly checked. I've worked in a nursery and as a nanny where they didn't bother to check my references...some people are not doing their best when it comes to child protection.

It puts me off nurseries altogether, I am sorry but it does. I don't care the workers are black, white, male, female or martian they have so much faith and trust put in them by parents.
I hate sending my little one.

I personally wouldnt put a child in a nursery until the child was old enough to tell me about their day.

*A person working with very young children should be (and in a good nursery/school etc would be) subject to more checks than CRB and educational qualifications
*

Well, they did try, didn't they? The vetting database was intended to provide up to date checks but Philip Pullman et al thought it was "offensive"...

charliesmommy I agree with you there!

"mutznutz there should be ongoing checks, with regard to behaviour/conduct, and not simply checks when recruiting"

Yes, I just wondered specifically what these checks would be please?

mutznutz I'm not an expert in implementing procedures to prevent abuse, however I have worked in schools and nurseries and based on what I have observed I would say;

1. References should be thoroughly checked (more useful than a CRB imo)

1. New staff should be shadowed by an older member of staff (been there longer I mean not older age-wise).

1. There should be a clear policy/procedure for how staff should behave and this should be followed. Management should check regularly that this is being followed and staff are not getting slack. It would be wise to limit the amount of time staff spend one-on-one with children, away from the group.

1. All staff should be trained in child protection and there should be a culture within the nursery that this is a relevant and important issue rather than 'oh no, i've gotta go on some boring training course about child protection'.

1. Standards should generally be high, ime when standards are generally let slide, unusual/unacceptable staff behaviour slips under the radar far more easily.

1. Most importantly, staff and management shouldn't be complacent as sharkslayer says. The biggest problem I think is that staff have the attitude 'it won't happen here/to me' and so miss signs that could have been spotted and reported earlier.

What checks do you think should take place? Or are you of the mindset 'we've done a CRB, there's nothing else we can do'?

No I'm not of that mindset. I just wondered if you were thinking of a check I hadn't heard of. All the checks you mentioned and more are quite common

Also, a school/nursery with a good govening body will see they are adhered to.

yep thats exactly what I said "A person working with very young children should be (and in a good nursery/school etc would be) subject to more checks than CRB and educational qualifications".

It's the bad nurseries that are the problem, not the good ones.

That and distinguishing the good from the bad, which isn't always easy.

You're right it's not easy and sadly, due to council and government cutbacks it's bound to get a lot more difficult.

I'm at a bit of a loss too.... do we have to learn that people need CRBs, or shouldn't we be employing men to work with young children, ...what?

Frankly, we need more males working with young children. Why should they grow up thinking that caring for and teaching young children is 'womens' work? Loads of children will never clap eyes on a male in a professional learning environment (sorry, sounds so jargony, but couldn't think of another way to phrase it) until they get to secondary school.

good point Tanith

All nurseries need to put systems in place so that it is pretty much impossible for staff to do this in their setting, short of every member of staff being involved. It is about changing attitudes in the setting rather than just blanket policies which is a really hard thing to do. Until they do this these stories will keep coming up.

Our nursery is a new build and they have made sure that it is not possible for a member of staff to be unseen alone with a child at any time. Their biggest selling point is the importance they place on safeguarding and it gets them an outstanding rating in ofsted, but it is not cheap. They have the attitude that they want to make it so difficult for an abuser they would go and work elsewhere rather than stay where they can't commit offences.

CRB and other checks can help foster a culture of accountability. Perhaps if these checks happen not leaving anything to chance will drip into the care of every child/.

The vetting database that Philip Pullman (among many others) objected to was ridiculous and pointless. And I seriously doubt it would've made the slightest difference to this case either.