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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to want to bellow "When will you all LEARN???" <sensitive - about the headline story>

100 replies

Alambil · 06/01/2011 22:05

Again - a warning; this is about the headlines about Birmingham. DO NOT read if you don't want to.

I just want to yell at someone "WHEN will you LEARN?"

There are enough serious case reviews now that all have common themes of possible reasons and ways to avoid such events occuring.... but still it happens and still it comes to the headlines.

WHY? it is SO wrong and SO unfair

OP posts:

Original poster

Alambil · 06/01/2011 22:26

for bloody hell's sake. will you READ my posts?

I'm not talking about the man. I'm not talking about the event. I'm talking about the events and behaviours that may have happened (we don't know yet) in the lead up to this.

Serious case reviews look at "what went wrong to allow this to happen and how do we prevent it happening again" ... but it seems we aren't learning anything to prevent future occurences. If you go and read Serious Case reviews about similar events, there will be common themes. That's what I'm talking about - the things that happened, more or less in each case which could have been stopped or changed but weren't which may have led to this happening.

NOTHING to do with the individual. ALL to do with the wider picture.

and NOTHING to do with nurseries. My own child went to nursery. It was great.

OP posts:

FabbyChic · 06/01/2011 22:26

The earlier news reported it was a young child, between 2 and 3.

Original poster

Alambil · 06/01/2011 22:27

Tiffany, anyone can google serious case reviews for baby P or the plymouth nursery... if you so wanted. I don't recommend; it's horrific reading.

OP posts:

BoysAreLikeDogs · 06/01/2011 22:28

Plymouth Serious Case Review Summary released in Nov 2010

PrincessBoo · 06/01/2011 22:28

I work in the public sector and have read serious case reviews too as part of child protection training- including baby P - they are freely available including online. I know what you are saying Lewis although I think people have taken the we used in the OP a bit personally, which I don't think was your intention.

charliesmommy · 06/01/2011 22:29

What do you propose should be done to prevent it LewisFan?

We all know that a CRB is meaningless other than to prevent a CONVICTED offender being employed.

PrincessBoo · 06/01/2011 22:30

oh and YANBU.

QueenGigantaurofMnet · 06/01/2011 22:30

But we don't yet know that this nursary have done anything wrong. im sure i saw someone say that the child was not even a pupil at the nursary.

it just so happened that the abuser worked in a nursary.

There is nothing to learn until we know that mistakes were made.

FabbyChic · 06/01/2011 22:31

Gordy

Are you aware of how much evidence they need to charge him? They would not do it on a whim, they took his computer, following that they arrested and detained him.

He put the noose round his own neck.

No smoke without fire.

PrincessBoo · 06/01/2011 22:32

She isn't talking about CRB checks CharliesMummy Everytime these cases occur the same things get flagged up. It goes so much further than CRB checks. It's about bad multi agency working, lack of information sharing, people not making the right checks, people not being trained properly to recognize signs, people not knowing about whistleblowing policies etc etc

gordyslovesheep · 06/01/2011 22:32

But I still don't understand you 'when will we learn' when it's based on an assumption that a) he's guilty b) it involved a child in the nursery and b) the nursery was at fault

wait until any TRIAL and then the SCR - then by all means start this discussion and we will all be armed with the facts which we can use to discuss it

until then it's all conjecture and 'OMG' Sun reader style outrage

mutznutz · 06/01/2011 22:33

There has been a hell of a lot learnt and changed over the years due to serious case reviews. Obviously when anything goes wrong a serious case review will be held.

I don't understand your point OP or who you can start a thread like this without having read the forthcoming serious case review regarding this allegation.

To be honest, you seem to be blowing hot air and jumping the gun by a clear mile.

Why not wait and see what happens and then have your rant?

charliesmommy · 06/01/2011 22:34

But I still fail to see what could be done until something does come to light.

Clearly someone has got something right here, because he has been caught. And at only 20 too, which means he cant carry on undetected for many more years.

QueenGigantaurofMnet · 06/01/2011 22:34

He put the noose round his own neck.

errm? When did i move to texas? I don't remember the death penalty being bought back.

QueenGigantaurofMnet · 06/01/2011 22:36

well indeed Charliesmummy.

I have yet to see a "pedo" detector at the airports. until then we do not know who is a threat to children until they actually commit a crime.

edam · 06/01/2011 22:38

Lewis - I'm sure you are right. Similar issues in the NHS. Official inquiry after official inquiry come up with the same findings about lack of communication, about a failure of leadership, about tribalism, about people being afraid to tackle those further up the hierarchy, etc. etc. etc. - sadly lessons are not learnt and you end up with yet another scandal. University of Manchester Business school did a report on this some years ago, examining scandals and pointing out nothing ever changed. Sadly they were right and they continue to be right.

trixie123 · 06/01/2011 22:45

FabbyChic "no smoke without fire"???? Oh good God... fetch my pitchfork and daily mail flail instantly... Thats why we have a justice system and a presumption of innocence. Look at that landlord in the murder case recently. he was under arrest for about three days during which time everyone who's ever known him raced to tell their story to the press about what a weirdo he was and now they are looking elsewhere for the murderer and the guy is left no doubt afraid to stick his head out the front door.

Catnao · 06/01/2011 22:51

I work as a teacher. I do not have a clear CRB - I have a police caution from when I was in my early twenties. 12 years ago. Anoyying I have to bring up a drunken night 7 years ago when my friends and annoyed a police officer. Is that what CRB is for?

mutznutz · 06/01/2011 23:03

Yes Catnao

SlackSally · 06/01/2011 23:10

Some scary opinions being expressed on this thread.

No smoke without fire being the most awful.

Do you not understand what a stupid statement that is?

Do you not think anyone has ever been wrongly convicted of anything?

ohnoshedittant · 06/01/2011 23:13

charliesmommy there are steps that can be taken to prevent things like this happening. Perhaps if different/better procedures were in place it would have 'come to light' sooner. Do you honestly think that a CRB is all we can do?

I've worked in a nursery and was appalled at the level of safeguarding there. Obviously most nurseries are very good and very safe, but there are nurseries out there that do not follow procedures etc. and children suffer as a result. I'm with the OP in wondering 'when will they learn'. The biggest problem, often, is a serious case of 'well it won't happen here/to me'.

huddspur · 06/01/2011 23:13

We don't know enough about this case to start laying blame on the various systems.

griphook · 06/01/2011 23:20

Just wanted to say that to a certain extent the op is right, we haven't learn't anything from previous cases, and child protection is still not prority. I've worked in Nurseries for the past 16 years and have recently left my last work place due to CRB's. Staff that were not permanent aren't CRB checked at all (I think due to cost). The company justifies this by saying that they are never left alone with the children, so are not a threat. I was concerned that although CRB's are only as good as the day they are printed and in this case not sure if he had a CRB. They are there to flag up previous convictions. I think it's very difficult to say 100% that un checked staff are never left alone with children and a huge burden on staff to have to constanly think I can not leave the room even to go to toliet.I did complain to OFSTED and they said this was ok, IMHO I don't think this should be allowed.

On a different issuse staff are mean't to have safeguarding training provided by the local authority to help them to spots signs and symptoms of abuse,some staff have had to wait over two years for this due to lack of courses and spaces availble, this leaves children at risk

charliesmommy · 06/01/2011 23:22

what steps could have been taken if this person had no criminal record, had the required educational qualifications, and passed any other checks...

the answer is none...

people can create jobs and have as many review meeting and write lists of procedures as long as they like, but it will not prevent these things happening every time..

you could put as many procedures in place as you like, but until someone is caught, what can you do if that person has not done anything to cause suspicion..

no matter what recruitment processes are in place, a 20 yr old with little work history is unlikely to have any causes for concern

gordyslovesheep · 06/01/2011 23:22

no - she is right IF the investigation and subsequent trial and SRC finds that the nursery where involved and or at fault

we don;t know that - so while I do get where the OP is comming from it sound mildly dramatic and OMG

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