to want to buy a puppy from a reliable person

[AuntiePickleBottom]

how can i tell if the owner is not just breeding for profit.

Well I've just spent hours reading about all the lovely beings on Many Tears, and rather appropriately, shed many tears myself.
Val, can I ask you: why are so many of the dogs from Ireland? When it says that a dog is an ex-breeder, does that mean she was used in a puppy farm? How do the dogs come to Britain? Is there a lack of rescue charities in Ireland?
Sorry for so many questions. I'm just curious about the circumstances of so many of the dogs. I adore all dogs and would gladly take in any one of the little loves on that site, but sadly we rent a first flat with no garden and are both at work all day every day - no life for a faithful friend. As soon as things change, bringing home a rescue dog will be first on the list of things to do!

"Lecturing and insulting folk who have done their research with their feet and their money and SUPPORTED breeders who are doing it properly ...is not helping your cause. Quite the opposite in fact."

I don't quite see that Slubber. IME the majority are made up of those whose viewpoint is inflexible and who will never touch rescue for whatever reason and those who are unaware of the plight of pound and rescue dogs but who will rescue when they become aware of it. It's unlikely that I will have alienated many people to "my cause" who were ever likely to give serious consideration to rescue in the first place. People would have to be pretty stupid or pretty cruel to reject the idea of a rescue dog just because they didn't like my attitude.

I have however made quite a lot of people reconsider the way they perceive rescue and pound dogs, opened a lot of people's eyes to the reality and severity of the situation and, most importantly, caused several people to adopt from rescue who would previously have bought from a breeder. Some of those have said as much on MN, so I can't be doing it all wrong! :)

Val, it is wonderful that because of the advice you have given on mn that people have gone on to adopt dogs from rescue. Your knowledge of how rescue works is obviously a great asset to mn.

However there are lots of dog owners on mn, you only need to look at the 'what's your dog's name and breed' thread to see that. Plenty of folk on that thread have got pedigree dogs and (I assume) a fair few of them will have got their dogs as puppies from breeders.

To be told that if you have bought a puppy from a breeder not only makes you an idiot but also an (albeit) indirect killer of dogs is unlikely to endear you to those on, or who are lurking on this thread.

Is this a common sentiment amongst dog rescuers? (genuine question)

Now I know you have said that you don't seek respect from posters here on mn, that you only care for the dogs. I find that a little hard to believe I'm sorry. After all it is people who rescue the dogs, people who very well may have had a puppy from a breeder in the past.

Do you tell your prospective dog adopters that they are idiots and dog killers? I'm betting not. How likely are they to return to the rescues YOU work at if this is what you think of them? Would they NOT rescue a dog because of your attitude and opinions? Probably not, as you say that would be cruel and stupid. Might they look elsewhere at another (possibly less good) rescue centre ? Would I come to you for advice about how to go about it? What do you think?

Still also interested in hearing your logical conclusion to what happens if no one should be allowed to breed (it being irresponsible and all).

Slubber, I completely agree with all that you say.

Val, I have so much admiration for all the work you do with the rescue dogs, I really do - its heartbreaking to see the condition some of the dogs when they come in.

However as Slubber said:

"To be told that if you have bought a puppy from a breeder not only makes you an idiot but also an (albeit) indirect killer of dogs is unlikely to endear you to those on, or who are lurking on this thread."

This really does offend me, as both and ex breeder and a dog owner. I am not an idiot or an indirect killer of dogs

why are so many of the dogs from Ireland?

Largely because Irish animal welfare law hasn't been reviewed or altered for over a century, because of the lack of rescue in Ireland and because of the cultural attitude towards dogs there, particularly working dogs and Greyhounds.

When it says that a dog is an ex-breeder, does that mean she was used in a puppy farm?

Yep , very often it will mean that by MT I'd imagine, reading between the lines and going on my own experience. To get a greater overview of the percentage of farmed dogs you'd have to ask them directly but I can say that they are known to rescue puppy farmed pups and adult dogs too so certainly these will number in their lists.

How do the dogs come to Britain?

Generally by "dedicated transport" - a volunteer will go into the pound every morning, photograph the pound dogs and put them onto a website - usually PetsIreland. Rescue spaces will be pleaded for and time is tight, the vets visit at least weekly to PTS. Sometimes they will attend the pound to PTS dogs twice weekly if the pound is full. This is when the message also gets sent out to the wider rescue community, both in the UK and Ireland, and appeals go out by email by networkers to rescues on their contact lists.

As soon as rescue places have been secured the volunteer will either return to the pound, collect the dogs and meet the transporter at a convenient port or the transporter will collect the dogs and load them himself, taking them on the ferry to the UK.

Once in the UK it's usual that various rescue reps/volunteers will meet the transporter along their route, collecting the dogs for their particular rescue and continuing the journey to safety.

The transporters drive specially fitted vehicles in accordance with the law. Some are Greyhound transporters, a necessary evil, not people that rescue really want to fund but it's often that or leave the dogs to die. Otherwise there are the Remys and Beas of this world, whose work is almost exclusively rescue.

As soon as they are on board, all rescue turns to the next week's pound dogs and the soul-destroying process begins all over again, week in, week out.

It all sounds simple enough but it's a logistical nightmare and finding rescue places is almost as hard a job as getting the bastard pound managers to allow some of the dogs out in the first place. Sadly, some Irish pounds are, AFAIK still, "closed pounds" where no-one, rescue or public, is allowed in and not one dog comes out alive.

Is there a lack of rescue charities in Ireland?

Yes, there is a huge gulf between need and provision. Again, I think that this is cultural as much as anything else... financial too perhaps. The former might not be a popular comment but the majority of my Irish contacts in dog rescue and animal rights - by which I mean those who are Irish themselves - despise their countrymen for their attitude towards and treatment of dogs.

Two of the best in Ireland, in my opinion, are ARAN, the Irish animal welfare campaign group and Bernie Wright of Dublin Dog Rescue and AFAR (Alliance for Animal Rights) a tireless worker for dog welfare and supporter of animal rights.

The sad fact is, a huge proportion of pedigree dogs (and otherwise) bred in this country are not bred by responsible or caring breeders at all. There are around 45,000 labradors registered every single year witht he KC, a similar number of Golden Retrievers. That is just two breeds and a huge, huge number of those will be either puppy farmed of bred by people who think it's lovely to have a litter from their pet but never understand the bigger picture, or people who think it's acceptable to try and get the money back they spent on their pet, just want to make some money etc etc. Once these puppies are sold the seller usually doesn't care where they end up or realise they are responsible for them. Then of course, there are the unregistered 'pedigree' dogs... no-one knows how many they amount to every year.

I know exactly where every single puppy I have bred is. Had I not have bred them, would the owners have gone to rescue? Maybe, but unless that was the only option a lot would have gone to another breeder, one who may not be as consciencious as me. I always advertise litters even if they are all booked (they usually are although sometimes people have to drop out last minute) and when people ring I tell them I sadly have no puppies available and give them the number for both breed rescue and the breed club and explain in brief to them how to find a well bred puppy and how to avoid bad breeders.

I don't breed often anyway, once every 3-6 years but if I really thought it would make a difference if I stopped breeding I would. (temporarily I might add) As long as the governement sees dog breeding as a legitimate business and doesn't bother to regulate it properly and allows puppies to be sold in pet shops the situation will never change. People often don't care what sort of breedee they get their dogs from because they don't want to pay £700 or so for a well bred dog, they don't think it's worth it, they don't want to wait for a puppy, they want it now and they don't want the hassle of being checked. People are too selfish to really care about dogs.

There need to be much tighter restrictions around dog breeding and ownership and better education for the general public.

Another huge problem I have is that I would be happy to foster dogs but because our own dogs are entire most rescues won't even consider us. I understand their reservations, but I have a few friends, also pretty experienced who would like to do the same but have been unable to do so. So there could be many mire much needed foster homes available but aren't. It seems such a waste.

Just seen Val's previous post and have to say I am appalled by the attitude to animals since I have been in Northern Ireland. I'm not saying everyone is the same but there's a huge number of dogs allowed to free roam, kept outside, not vaccinated and not neutered. The prevelance of parvo is very high here. I also only refer to 'pet' dogs here, not the ones sadly in puppy farms or other even more dire situations.

"There need to be much tighter restrictions around dog breeding and ownership and better education for the general public."

I agree with you 100% midori.

Slubber, I'll try to answer, will be brief as have work to do saving dogs tonight.

1. I didn't call those who went to breeders idiots, I called those who get rid of dogs through free ads idiots and said they may well be the SAME idiots who would go to a breeder of whatever description only to dispenswe with the dog inappropriately. Meaning particularly those who go to a breeder of the non tip-top type. These lesser breeders make up the majority of breeders in the UK.

2.Is my view common? Amongst other AR supporters, certainly, amongst those at the sharp end of rescue, I'd be prepared to put a good bet on it, amongst the RSPCA/DT side of rescue, haven't a clue. Overall, probably, definitely I know loads who agree with the "Buy One Get One Killed" theory.

1. Presuming to know or doubt how I feel is reducing the strength of your argument. No, I don't give a shit whether I'm respected or liked on here - I work for the dogs, not for anyone else. Sorry you don't believe me but there it is.

1. Do I tell prospective dog adopters that they are idiots? No, because that's not what I said, see above. Also I rarely deal directly with adopters and more often with those who DON'T want their dog. (Prob hence the cynicism!). That they are dog killers? No for same reason, it's never come up, have no problem with explaining WHY buying from a breeder will often result in a dogs death if need be though.

1. Jesus, you've asked a lot of questions!

"How likely are they to return to the rescues YOU work at if this is what you think of them?" I don't work at or for ANY rescue, I am completely independent. I don't work for a rescue, or for the owner or for the prospective owner or for myself. I work for the dog.

1. Would they NOT rescue a dog because of your attitude and opinions?

Never experienced that.

1. Might they look elsewhere at another (possibly less good) rescue centre

Never experienced that either/

1. Would you come to me for advice etc, etc..?

Clearly not, that doesn't mean that I don't know what i'm talking about or I'm not good at what I do. It may be the ONLY thing I'm good at, but I'm proud of it!

1. What happens would ultimately be a reduction of dogs in rescue and I'd get more sleep at night! There would be no more damaged, overbred dogs, no more need for BSL.

And of course it wouldn't happen. It's all very hypothetical and subjective and can be open to debate for hours, if not weeks, but we'd never agree so it's not a line I want to pursue too much. My time is far more valuable explaining how Irish rescue works, for example, than bantering about something which ain't ever gonna happen.

Suffice to say we could do far worse than to demand legislation which restricts breeders to breeding only one bitch at a time, that insists that ALL breeders are registered and inspected regularly, that ALL dogs should be neutered unless licensed to breed and so on... these are just a few but things which, amongst other similar beliefs which we (at last :o ) might BOTH agree on.

Thought I'd just throw in my experiences......

We got our first dog 5 years ago - I wanted a JRT (watched too many episodes of Frasier ). From our research at the time rescue centres weren't interested in us as we had no dog experience - didn't know about MT, DBARC etc or even Mumsnet.

We got a JRT from a back street breeder - council house in a not so sought after area etc. We saw mum but it would appear the pups were kept outside. We paid £200 and came away with our puppy. It turns out she's a JRT crossed with god knows what but she is a beautiful little dog and has been a joy. A really easy dog for a first time owner. I know these breeders aren't approved of but our lovely puppy deserved a good home, which she got.

Once we had her I made a friend with a JRT who went on to breed her twice from the same father. We didn't have one from the first litter but did from the second. Most of the pups stayed local so we've seen them grow up.
Our second pup came from a good home and my friend did a fantastic job and made virtually no profit. Money wasn't the reason for breeding.

Second pup is gorgeous but has been a bloody nightmare despite having the best possible start. She developed issues from a few incidents (picked on by big dogs and some bratty visiting children). She developed fear aggression and I did one-to-one training with a Police Dog Handler and she is a lot better but still a long way from perfect. Her sister who lives around the corner is placid and has a completely different character.

So I guess what I'm saying is that good start doesn't necessarily mean easy dog and bad start doesn't necessarily mean nightmare dog.
And having the dog from a pup doesn't guarentee you get a dog without issues.

Not sure if that helps but felt the need to share!

Oh and if I ever got another dog I would def rescue.

Valhalla thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions. I do appreciate it. And I certainly do appreciate the work you do for the creatures who need you. I agree with everything you've said.

You are a gift to our four-legged friends.

I'd always choose rescue over buying when it comes to dogs/cats. And definitely wouldn't buy pedigree, I have so many problems with pedigree breeding.

ps. thanks for the link upthread, have saved it for when we are in a position to rescue a dog.

Here's the thing, Slubber. You are quite rightly pointing out that there are some responsible breeders around and indeed there are some on MN. On that we agree. But, and here's where we differ, I've been spending most of Christmas writing a four thousand word submission to WAG on their dog breeding consultation - the very thing you say you want to see. (I hope you will be putting in a submission.) A consultation that will lead to a change in the law governing dog breeding, bringing in tighter licensing and introducing microchipping. I've been involved in the long process of getting WAG even to this stage, and along the way I've met many caring people who've put hours of work in - vets, dog wardens, welfare volunteers. Strangely enough I didn't meet many dog breeders. The only face of so called legitimate breeders was the Kennel Club and they are asking for the modest improvements in the regulations to be watered down. Take a look at their website to see this in more detail. So you'll forgive, I hope, my cynicism about breeders and their concern for welfare.

WAG will publish the consultation responses after the closing dates - I wonder how many of them will come from breeders, welcoming these new higher standards? I posted about the consultation here on MN a while back, just before Christmas, specifically inviting breeders and all those with an interest to respond. You know what, the only person who said they would is Val, another rescue worker.

You say you want to see better breeding standards - but by your own admission you didn't report a breeder keeping a bitch in poor conditions.

You can say what you like about those of us in dog rescue - what I and Val do, time and again, and my posts will show this, is tell people about the realities of dog rescue, the numbers, the conditions, and a bit about what can be done to improve matters. Sometimes I feel like a stuck record, but if I manage to suggest that even one person gets a rescue dog then I'm happy. I don't think I will ever stop legitimate dog breeding, nor would I want to, but people need to understand the horrible reality of puppy farming and the equally vile position of dogs in pounds. What makes the dog trade even worse is that our Council tax goes to subsidise the irresponsible breeders and owners - money I would far rather see spent on old people or children's education.

For most families, a rescue dog, whether adult or puppy, pedigree or Heinz 57 can provide a loving, healthy family pet who will provide many years of joy and companionship. Unlike pedigree dogs, who have powerful and wealthy advocates in breed clubs and the Kennel Club, many of these dogs have nobody to speak for them, or be an advocate. Val and I, in our different ways, and mine is very modest, are simply trying to redress the balance a bit.

Scuttle, who do you think runs and fund breed rescues if it is not the breeders? Certainly in our breed they are run by breeders and funded by breeders. Most of the dogs that come through breed rescue are not responsibly bred and if they are and the breeder can be notified they will usually come and collect them right away.

As for the KC being the 'face' of legitimate breeders, hardly! There are so many improvements the KC could make but don't/aren't in any hurry to make but sadly for now they are the only pedigree resitration body and we are stuck with them. Hopefully breed clubs can keep pushing forward for change (lets face it a huge amount of farmed puppies are KC registered) and it will eventually happen.

Kaloki what exactly is it you don't like about pedigree dog breeding?

Not in the rescues I deal with on a regular basis they damn well aren't midori, nor, I'd imagine in 99% of any other all-breed rescues either.

I can name several breed rescues which have absolutely nothing to do with breeders and, sorry to offend you on this one but it has to be said because it's true in my experience, want nothing to do with them because they feel nothing but contempt for breeders.

I know that this isn't the case for all. But the ones that worry me are the ones that will breed dogs that they know will suffer because of some of the features of their breed. I also dislike that there are breeders out there who will kill dogs that do not meet their "ideals" for the breed. I hate the use of animals as some kind of trophy. And I feel like buying pedigree pets shows idiots like that, that there is money to be made. And I hate the thought of people profiting from something like that.

I think I'd be happier with pedigree breeding if there was consequences for those who are deliberately making life difficult for their dogs.

Right, my English has gone completely up the spout! That's what happens when you only got a couple of hours sleep the night before. No reply from the idiots who can't be bothered to care for their Sheps any more, so I'm giving up and going to bed... if I can squeeze in between my own 2 German Shepherds and my Labrador. :)

Night all!

Val, maybe I have made an assumption there then based on our own breed rescue, which certainly is funded by and ran by breeders. I am not saying it is the only breed rescue but we certainly do as much as we can and a lot of money is put into it by the club and it's members. Part of the responsibility of breeding is trying to give something back and help out where you can and if people don't think that they shouldn't be breeding.

There are breeders and there are breeders. I know this, you know this. Why not accept help from those who are willing to offer it? (As I mentioned above I am unable to foster as I keep entire dogs. Seems daft to me when there are dogs needing homes urgently and experienced people can offer a good and safe long or short term home) There shouldn't be a 'them' and 'us. If people want to help dogs, they want to help dogs.

Kaloki where are you getting your information from? There aren't many breeds that are bred to extremes to the detriment of the dog. I agree with you it should never be done though, no matter how infrequently, but there are a lot of misconceptions about. The days of breeders culling puppies that don't meet the breed standards are thankfully pretty much well and truly past. No-one but the most unethical and sigusting of morons would even consider it.

There isn't money to be made by breeding pedigree dogs properly, responsibly and ethically. You won't find it easy to find a responsibly bred non pedigree dog though, because what is that persons reason for breeding? Money? Acident? Wanting their dog to have puppies? There's no good reason.

Val, maybe I have made an assumption there then based on our own breed rescue, which certainly is funded by and ran by breeders. I am not saying it is the only breed rescue but we certainly do as much as we can and a lot of money is put into it by the club and it's members. Part of the responsibility of breeding is trying to give something back and help out where you can and if people don't think that they shouldn't be breeding.

There are breeders and there are breeders. I know this, you know this. Why not accept help from those who are willing to offer it? (As I mentioned above I am unable to foster as I keep entire dogs. Seems daft to me when there are dogs needing homes urgently and experienced people can offer a good and safe long or short term home) There shouldn't be a 'them' and 'us. If people want to help dogs, they want to help dogs.

Kaloki where are you getting your information from? There aren't many breeds that are bred to extremes to the detriment of the dog. I agree with you it should never be done though, no matter how infrequently, but there are a lot of misconceptions about. The days of breeders culling puppies that don't meet the breed standards are thankfully pretty much well and truly past. No-one but the most unethical and sigusting of morons would even consider it.

There isn't money to be made by breeding pedigree dogs properly, responsibly and ethically. You won't find it easy to find a responsibly bred non pedigree dog though, because what is that persons reason for breeding? Money? Acident? Wanting their dog to have puppies? There's no good reason.

Scuttle, you say here's how we differ....

I'm not opposing any of your view AT ALL. Where on on have I said ANYTHING on this thread that is anti rescuers or anti rescue. Quite the opposite in fact. All the insults on this thread have been thrown at the people who are supporting GOOD (although I like the phrase tip top) breeders.

I have just the same level of contempt for the other types as you have.

I did not see your WAG post at Christmas. I have put it on my to do list.

No I didn't report the breeder. I was not on mn at the time it happened and may well have asked for advice about it then. Who should I have reported it to? Can I report in hindsight? This is coming up for a year ago now.

I am not disagreeing with you AT ALL either that happy healthy dogs ( and puppies) can come from rescue. My choice was to go down the tip top breeder route, and by doing so (I believe) have supported good breeding practices and dog welfare.

This is not in my mind a them and us thread. You want a puppy either go to rescue OR do your research (lots of research) find an exemplary breeder and be prepared to wait for your puppy.

And as for breeders not getting involved in the discussion process, that is very sad. I have no idea why the good breeders wouldn't do this, but I haven't read the consultation paper yet.

Our next dog will definitely be a rescue despite having nothing but praise for the breeder we got our dog from. She sends Christmas cards to him, is always happy to discuss him and the breed in general, is delighted to see him when we are passing.

If I ever make my millions me and sil are going to open up a rescue and keep all of the dogs in our ginormous mansion with rolling acres and employ a full time vet and groomer to help keep the dogs in tip top condition.

To Valhalla and everybody who works in rescue I absolutely salute you.

Val thank you for clarifying that you don't think that everyone who has bought from a breeder is an idiot. Your initial post

The idiots at number one are the same type of idiots who will have bought their pup from a breeder of some description, be that "responsible", the neighbour who let their dog get caught/wanted a litter so the kids can play with the pups/doesn't think a dog should be spayed or be that a puppy farmer.

Doesn't make that clear at all and IMO very much insinuated that.

Of course I (and others here) are still being labelled as inadvertent dog killers, probably the worst insult I have ever been called on mn, and one I refute whole heartedly.

As for saying the discussion about stopping all breeding is hypothetical one, well of course it is! We both know it would never happen, which is why i was rather taken aback that you thought that discussing how responsible a breeder is was irrelevant.

Discussing on mn (on a thread entitled AIBU to want to buy a puppy from a reliable person) what makes a breeder an excellent one is not only relevant to the OP, it presumably quite relevant to the discussion about improving dog welfare in this country.

When we decided to get a dog I had a list of 'wants'. It had to be an active dog, had to be no bigger than a collie, no smaller than a corgi. Had to have short hair, had to be a pup and had to be good with kids.

I went to Many Tears. I fell in love with my girl on the website, and wanted her sister.

Many Tears were fab, including gently but firmly telling me that the would not let me have 2 from the same litter (they never do with pups). I was furious, argued with Silvie but eventually backed down and, after home check, ended up with my adored Gwen, who ticked every last one of my checklist!

At the same time a friend went to a breeder and got litter sister collies.

My MuttDog is now a year old and is fabulous and we are currently checking the MT website for a friend for her. When we choose (DD keeps changing her mind!) MuttDog will come with us and we won't get any dog that she isn't 100% happy with (quite fancy Tiesto at the moment, but we are seriously considering Nancy to give her a nice 'end of life':( )

MT were great, and took into consideration all our circumstances (Military family, RSPA wouldn't touch us for eg). They have made us unbelieveably happy.

My friend with the collie litter sisters? One is now in rescue :( they didn't get on as they grew, they fought all the time and as they fought one bit a child. Friend should never have been allowed litter sisters, so MT were a damn sight better at their job than the 'registered breeder' (we tried to take the second bitch, but she bit MuttDog and snarled at DD, so no chance). After arguing with Silvie I did a lot of research into litter sisters, it's a common problem between them and no reputable breeder should have allowed it. Thank God I found someone willing to say no rather than look at the money.