to want to buy a puppy from a reliable person

[AuntiePickleBottom]

how can i tell if the owner is not just breeding for profit.

Loopy, we didn't want a pedigree dog because of vanity!

We wanted a specific breed of do because after doing a hell of a lot of research into the sort of breed would suit our family, we chose what breed we wanted and that was that. The fact that we have a pedigree dog is completely irrelevant, it's just the by product of us choosing a breed and finding a reputable breeder.

Dooinmecleanin thank you but a dog that can't be socialised generally is not reliable and just because they don't get on with kids does not inmho mean they should be rehomed with anybody without children. We had our gsd before children. We still knew people with children and I would be devastated if anything happened with visitor.
I think I'm in a minority, but I don't get rehoming. I would prefer better regulating but that's never going to happen.

Auntie, be careful, you will fall in love with all of them and want to take them home!

Slubber, if you and any other "reputable" breeder on MN really care about dog welfare, then get yourself over to the Welsh Assembly Government website and take part in their current consultation. Wales is looking at changing the legislation that governs licensing of dog breeders - desperately needed and long overdue. Wales is unfortunately the centre of a vile trade in pups with poor welfare standards - many of these dogs will end up either in English pounds, in English rescues or in homes all over the UK where poor health and welfare will compromise their lives with their well meaning owners who have in fact supported this vile trade by buying the pups in the first place.

For me the question is why would anyone, unless they are dedicated to showing dogs, actually need to buy an expensive dog from a breeder? You want a pup? Go to rescue. You want a specific breed? Go to resuce. You want an older dog, already housetrained? Go to rescue. You want to do agility or obedience? Rescue is full of dogs that will do this. You want a dog that is tested with cats and with children? Go to rescue. You want a dog that comes with a life long guarantee that the rescue will rehome it if for any reason you can't take care of it? Get a rescue.

Fishy smell? Damn right. Nothing smells as fishy as a rotting pile of dog corpses, or the horrible stench of a locked up chicken coop stuffed with a breeding bitch that never see daylight, has the crap cleared out or has any attention. And no I am not exaggerating or making this up - I wish I were.

English rate payers are paying for the left overs of the pedigree dog trade. Your Council tax pays for local dog pounds, dog wardens and the miserable job of putting to sleep thousands of dogs each year, many of whom ARE pedigrees. Rescues such as Val's and the one I volunteer for also pick up the pieces. And you know what, I don't see many of these reputable dog breeders volunteering, and I know people from all walks of life who do. Anyone who is a regular volunteer in dog rescue very rapidly becomes cynical about all these "responsible", caring breeders, that somehow are behind the door when it comes to clearing up the mess left behind from their trade.

Excellent post Scuttle.

Night all. :)

She was rehomed to rescue afaik. They tried to get the police to take her, but she failed their temprement tests.

I adored her and missed her too much to bear to ask if she ever made it out of rescue. But my mum assured me it was a no-kill rescue.

I have lost respect for her because all the time she is talking to us about our dogs ( and being excited about the forthcoming arrival of eagerly awaited puppies) she is thinking that we are responsible for killing dogs.

If you take owning a dog for most people to the 9 th degree then some level of it will be a selfish decision. I want a dog partly because of the pleasure it brings me. Talking about vanity vs the life of a living thing is a pretty silly argument itself. The two aren't mutually exclusive ideals. Peopl ( quite rightly and again selfishly) want dogs with particular attributes. How the dog looks is only part of the decision. I wouldnt an irish wolf hound. Vanity doesn' t even come into it.

If people want a reduction in the number of unwanted dogs or puppies there needs to be MUCH better education about what to look and ask for in an excellent breeder IN CONJUNCTION with recommendations to look at rescue.

Thank you curlymama

scuttle that should read 'dog trade' not 'pedigree dog trade' -

the recent trend for X-breeds has resulted in the rising demand for x-breeds being supplied by puppy farmers from Wales. And subsequently those dogs ending up in rescue, also.

and i do know reputable dog breeders who spend much of their time working to protect and rescue dogs from puppy farms as well as setting high standards for the welfare of the dogs they breed themselves.

Flinging, I think much has changed - a decent rescue will assess every dog before rehoming. I and my kids will handle scores of dogs in one day, we've never had a problem. For each bad story there are heaps of good ones - all my dogs have been rescued, I have 3 large breeds atm and have brought my teenagers up with these dogs, no problem.

Slubber, your respect for me has gone, fine. It was never sought in the first place. I seek to save dogs lives not please people and have never pretended otherwise. And yes I own Sheps, both rescue, the younger one came to me as a puppy.

"...who have spoken ..... about food, worming, immunisations, ongoing training and neutering. Who offer ongoing support after you have taken the puppy home, who would take that dog back in a flash if there was a problem?"

If the rescues I deal with did not do those things I wouldn't work alongside them. They will also ALWAYS homecheck... how many breeders do that?

"Because sending a message out that if you are a feckless eejit who hasn't bothered to have their dog or bitch neutered and oops here's a litter of puppies but never mind eh, people can only get their puppies fro rescue now and not from folk who are carefully and lovingly breed their dogs to the best standard, that's going to solve the problem of too many puppies being born isn't it?????"

If you'll stop for breath you'll see that I wrote above of a dire need for a complete overhaul in breeding legislation and licensing. it won't stop 'em all any more than any law stops any criminal activity but it'll make a huge difference.

Val has always said she works for dogs, first and foremost. I'm sure she's genuinely interested in your pets and happy to give advice. Don't be offended. I couldn't see the things she sees.

"My children are too important to be put at risk by a dog with an unknown history" - Fling that's a common misconception. Many dogs in rescue have come from homes where their history is known. By no means are they all strays without a background.

Spikey, bloody hell, that's mild from you! Are you under the weather Matey?! :o :o

I'm tired is all

Dooin, I couln't agree with you more. Supply and demand. do you know how many breeders I phoned up only to say no thank you, I won' t be buying one of your puppies because you have failed to get your bitch elbow scored?

Or the breeder I actually went out to see their litters who I said directly face to face to " no thank you I won't be buying one of your puppies because of the filthy conditions you are keeping your bitch and her puppies in.

If there were only more discerning puppy buyers, people who did their research and WALKED AWAY from litters then maybe that also would make people think about producing another litter from their bitch.

Scuttle butter, i wanted a specific breed and I wanted a puppy. What I also wanted was a puppy whose both parents had been hip scored and both had an average score of well below 16. I also wanted both parents to be elbow scored with both having scores of 0:0. Why? Because I wanted to reduce as much as possible of having a dog with the debilitating and painful conditions of hip and elbow dysplasia. I wanted to see eye scores from both bitch and sire for several years to reduce the risk of getting a dog with debilitating eye conditions. I wanted a puppy with one of the parents with a clear optigen test.

Shall I go on with the list? These are just the health tests.

Rescue puppies don't have this

I would love to think so Valhalla, but my parents experience was 2 years ago and my friends only 4. . I booked my boy into kennels today and they had gsds and more for rehoming. I have to admit if I were weaker I would do it, but they didn't even try to push...so ther is hope.

Additionally, Slubber, aside from the occasional "Oooh what have you chosen, I like X type puppies", I tend to stay away from the breeder pup threads. Likewise I have stayed away from the current one where the OP is seeking a pup and others advised her to approach rescue, which, last I read, she was willing to do. She wishes to use the pup as a gundog and so I, unwilling to encourage such a "sport", kept out of it.

I agree with a lot of what Val say and even though I don't agree with everything she says, I can see why she says/thinks it and do respect that.

I do think people should have the choice of whether they want a rescue pup or a pedigree puppy from a good breeder. Yes, people who buy a puppy are not taking on a rescue pup, but if they buy from a good breeder they are also not supporting the BYB's and puppy farmers who are the ones in the main, responsible for the number of dogs in rescue. Along with those who buy from them, of course.

There is a world of difference between buying from a good breeder and buying from a poor one. Good breeders will do all they can to ensure their puppies stay out of rescue (it is foolish to think you can guarantee it will never happen) and also contribute where they can to breed or other rescue.

Sadly, for all those who can't get a pup from rescue becaus etheir DC are too young/they work too many hours, it's quite likely a good breeder will reject you for those same reasons and that is because they know the liklehood of your situation working out with a dog is low and want what is best for their dogs, so maybe you need to reassess if you should get a dog? (unless you want to support one of those BYB's or puppy farmers of course and put your wants above the needs of the dog)

For anyone who does want a dog from a good breeder, the following is the absolute minimum you should want/expect:

• find a breeder via the breed club. NOT via the Kennel Club, an online ad site or newspaper ad.

• the puppy should be pure bred, hardly anyone breeding crossbreeds is responsible. Puppies should be KC registered, there is no good reason for not doing this! (if you want a crossbreed, go to rescue)

• the breeder should show or work and be heavily involved in the breed.

• the breeder will interrogate you about your life, maybe to the point of making you uncomfortable and may also want to home check

• the breeder should breed rarely, usually once every few years or less. Some well established breeders do breed more often than this as there tends to be a demand for their lines, but most do not.

• the breeder is very unlikely to have more than one litter at once. ('all my bitches came into season at once' isn't a good reason to have more than one litter at a time, 'I took my bitches abroad to a stud' is a better reason)

• puppies should be reared indoors or at the very least in good kennel conditions and with time indoors each day.

• puppies should be at least 7 weeks old prior to leaving the breeder.

• you should have to sign a contract of sale for the puppy.

• the breeder should agree to take the puppy back at any time in it's life if you can no longer keep it

• aftersales advice and support should be available from the breeder throughout the dog's life.

• puppies should be weaned onto a good quality diet

• the breeder should be doing what they can to socialise the pup while it is with them. (firework CDs, trips out etc)

• the puppies should be microchipped/tatooed or both.

• puppies should have been checked by a vet before they are rehomed

• you should have had to visit the breeder several times prior to them agreeing to sell you a pup, you will NOT be allowed to turn up for the first time and take the pup.

• parent dogs should have had all relevant health tests for that breed with good results and where applicable puppies should have also been tested for hereditary problems.

There are loads more things, too many to mention really, but that's a good starting point.

My breeder home checked me.

Wish I had a big house, Fling, I'd take them all in.:(

auntiepicklebottom Really thrilled you're going the rescue route. With kids, you might also want to consider adult dogs who have been fostered in a home with kids, rather than dogs who have been in kennels. This way you'll get a dog who has been fully assessed over time around children. There are of course plenty of pups in rescue too.

If this is your first experience with rescue, do make sure that the centre is a good one: that they neuter, worm, vax, health check the dogs and homecheck potential homes as a matter of course. if they don't do this, then I'd find another centre who do. Sadly just as there are good breeders and bad breeders, so it is with rescues.

I'm sure Valhalla. My aunt did! But I think the hardest thing about choosing a pup is knowing what you're looking at and trusting the breeder. And being hard enough to walk away. So I understand where you're coming from x

Slubber, you haven't said what you want your pup for - personally, if the breed I wanted had that many red flags for health checking, I'd be thinking actually about avoiding the breed altogether.

Can't speak for all breed specific rescues, but I do know some that have health checked dogs.

Did you report the dodgy breeders to the local authority/Kennel Club/breed club?

Again, if you care about puppy welfare, do take part in the WAG consultation - there is a real opportunity here to achieve a step change in dog welfare. I will be very interested when the consultations are published to see how many submissions will come from dog breeders.

The thing is a lot of the time good breeders are more likely to consider individual circumstances rather than have a blanket rule.
Most rescues near me refuse point blank to allow anyone who has children under 5 to adopt any dog, no exceptions whereas the breeder will consider the families individual circumstances. The same with regard to working full time (or even part time in some cases). IME the breeders will ask what each family plans to do to overcome individual problems and then make a judgement, whereas the kennels say no outright. Obviously some circumstances mean that you should not own a dog but if you can provide a reasonable quality of life for a dog but the kennels say no then I see no reason why you shouldn't then buy a dog from a reputable breeder. Especially if you tried to adopt first. Not meeting a kennels criteria does not mean that you would be a bad owner in all cases, and why should a good owner be unable to get a dog because of an inflexible rule?
Obviously puppy farms etc are awful and no one should support them in any way, but puppy farming is not the same as getting a puppy from a good breeder, maybe if some kennels were more flexible about who they allowed to adopt then more people would.

musicmadness, many rescues - the smaller, independents that is, not the big ones like Wood Green or RSPCA - do not have a blanket policy on rehoming to young families but go on a case by case basis. The one I'm a hands on volunteer for is such a rescue.

Likewise wrt work - for many rescues it will depend on the dog. (However I would say that anyone who works F/T, unless they can take their dog with them or have someone come in to him, is not suited to owning one until their circumstances change, no matter where the dog might come from).