to want to buy a puppy from a reliable person

[AuntiePickleBottom]

how can i tell if the owner is not just breeding for profit.

I might get told off for this, but we got our puppy from epupz. There are some scary adverts on there though. We got lucky and met a lovely lady who had a lot of experience breeding dogs when she was growing up with her family, and she said she just wanted to let her girl dog have a litter. She used a friends dog as the stud, and they were both pedigree, KC registered (not that that means much).

But we knew she was right as soon as we went to visit her house and met the puppies when they were 3 weeks old. She sent us pictures every week before it was time to take our puppy home, and she asked us loads of questions. It was clear she wanted her puppies to go to a good loving home. There is advice around about what to look for from a good breeder, I think being able to see the parents and where they all live is an important thing.

"YABU to want to buy a puppy when hundreds of healthy dogs and pups are being killed in English pounds alone each week for want of homes."
I think this is simplistic. Yes it's a tragedy that there are thousands of dogs abandoned and in need of homes, and so many dogs end up being destroyed. But I don't think that this means noone should buy pedigree dogs. Good, reputable breeders do not inbreed their dogs; they breed to maintain the breed standard and breed dogs whose characteristics have been selectively bred for their purpose. I think it would be a dreadful shame to lose the variety and quality of the dog breeds we have, although I don't agree with the way certain physical characteristics have been emphasised to a damaging degree in some breeds.

What should be stopped is the irresponsible, profit motivated breeding of unhealthy, genetically unsound dogs - puppy farms etc. I don't know how you do this - maybe educating people about how to identify these people and never buy from them, so that they go out of business.

I think this:

There are far too many dogs being bred in this country (and beyond).

This is resulting in people, for reasons which are too numerous and varied for me to list or explain tonight - here's just ONE, it's an easy option, you pay a couple of hundred, you walk out with a dog - opting to turn to breeders of various kinds when they might otherwise go to rescue. As a result of the choice to turn to breeders rather than rescue dogs die.

Many dogs are bred badly and irresponsibly, some are ill-treated, resulting in health and temperement problems.

Legislation on dog breeding is a farce and needs to be totally overhauled, particularly wrt licensing, which should be mandatory for ALL breeders with automatic prison sentences for those who breach the law.

I think much, much more, but I'm knackered, having been up YET AGAIN until the early hours of this morning trying to secure a rescue place for a pound dog who was due to be put to sleep this morning, purely because there were more dogs due in and no more space. First in = first out.

ComeAlongPond (what a name!) - rescue will ask a prospective owner to bring their existing dog to meet the dog they wish to adopt on neutral territory first of all. Then if that went well they would probably bring the dog to the owner's house to see how introductions went there before either new owner or rescue made any commitment or decisions.

A reputable rescue will always undertake, in writing, to having the dog back if the owner can't keep him for any reason, even if that's in 10 years time - so there's your safety net.

There is also the option of fostering, which will give you a trial run to see how you cope with a dog/another dog in the home, with food and vet fees paid by the rescue and no long term commitment. This might involve you training up a pup ready for a new home or, on the other end of the scale, for example, offering a winter home to an older dog who might otherwise be in an outdoor kennel.

Val can you answer my question please. do you think the posters in the doghouse topic who have bought from reputable and responsible breeders ( and indeed the reputable breeder(s) on mn) are responsible for killing dogs?

I'm starting to get more that a bit pissed off with this fishy smell that is starting to pervade mn that those of us who didn't get a dog from rescue are irresponsible (and possibly now immoral) dog owners.

Peering, clearly you don't do or see what I do.

Indirectly, yes.

Ah, that's good. I would just feel terrible taking a rescue dog and then having to send it back :(

Fostering might be an option... I have younger siblings still at home though, the youngest is besotted with the lab, and I'm not sure he'd bear it if he had a dog and couldn't keep it, so I'm sure they'd just end up adopting it anyway ;)

I will start working on my parents tomorrow. I was going to start now but seeing as the lab has just eaten my mother's paperwork I don't think it's the right time!

Also, how big does one's house/garden have to be before they let you have a rescue dog? (Or any dog for that matter.) I'm thinking of myself, now - I may well end up in London in a year or so, and want to get a dog asap. But obviously I don't want to take one if it isn't going to have the right sort of home.

(Sorry to completely hijack this thread with my questions, OP! I think I'll go and start my own thread.)

Slubber I think you are taking this a little personally. I obviously can't answer for Val, but surely you can see why someone whose life is centred around trying to ensure the best for dogs that might be killed, must see things a little differently from a dog breeder?
Just because it is preferable (IMO) to offer a needy dog a home first, doesn't mean that other dog owners are irresponsible or immoral. Disreputable dog breeders however, and those who don't check where they are getting dogs from, are.

Sorry, x posts, and I didn't mean to answer for you Val, but I don't think you are the person to be attacked in this situation. You are doing an amazing job and good on you for sticking to your morals.

Pond there is no particular size of garden demanded. In fact, I know one London rescue who, because of the type of dogs he takes - the ones which other rescues pass over - will often accept a home without a garden as long as he is sure that the dog will be walked, cared for and loved properly.

WRT what I do, take a look at my profile and see the top photo in my pictures. She came to my attention only today - nothing to do with me but to do with a contact of mine. She was pregnant - her babies were born by CS because she wouldn't have had the strength to go into labour and bear them naturally. Some of those pups never made it.

Look at the picture and tell me - why the fuck should I encourage, condone or advocate breeding of dogs when there are cases like hers in need of homes?

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you of course Pond, but at Slubber and anyone else who doubts the need for a complete and utter crackdown on breeding of dogs.

Loopy, thank you very much indeed. :)

The many tears link doesn't work for me. I have gone from one end to another with this issue myself. I have a fantastic, reliable, steady German shepherd. We want a pup now he is 10 and we can guide the pup with a fab steady dog on hand to meter discipline and etiquette. I would love a rescue, but I just do not trust previous owners enough to risk subjecticting my children to an unknown dog. So I disagree with those of you who say get a rescue. My father was severely savaged by a rescue dog a few years ago. Very sadly he had to be destroyed. And my parents are experienced dog owners. A colleague rescued a lab, beautiful but rehomed so many times it was unbelievable. Friend took said dog to work daily, never left her alone, took classes tried everything..ultimately the end came when the dog just savaged her arm for no read on one day and heartbreakingly she had to have the dog destroyed. I love dogs, but they are just dogs. Not even slightly as important as humans. So get a pup and bring it up with your family.

Maybe you would like to start a thread in the dog house topic then with your link and see what sort of response you get.

I'm afraid all respect I had for you as poster and as a source of knowledge about dogs has completely gone.

What about people who Want a pedigree dog. Iirc your favourite breed are gsds? What about the people who want to own a particular breed as a puppy, because they can and want to spend the hours and hours and hours you need to socialise and train your dog so it is a happy and well behaved dog? What about the people who would rather buy a puppy with fully health checked parents, where you have seen the environment the bitch lives in, who have spoken to the breeder at length about early puppy socialisation, about food, worming, immunisations, ongoing training and neutering. Who offer ongoing support after you have taken the puppy home, who would take that dog back in a flash if there was a problem?

People who go through that proces and say no to breeders who have not done all those things are indirectly responsible for killing dogs are they?

Can I ask what type of dogs your London friend takes? Have a friend who would love to be able to take on a rescue dog but lives in a flat with an unfenced communal garden.

Rescue also offer most of things Slubber. And you can get pedigrees via breed rescues.

flinging, sory your parents had a bad experience, but this is not just limited to rescue. We took a GSD when I was young. She was trained and socialised early as were all our dogs. She had no bad treatment at the hands of us. My father is very experienced with large breed dogs.

She attempted to savage anyone who went near her or me. The vet said there was no physical reason for her aggressiveness, but perhaps bad breeding.

She had to be rehomed as my parents had my younger siblings to consider and could not risk having her around them while they were attempting to retrain her or solve her issues.

A good rescue will have qualified and experienced behaviourists who will asses the dog fully before allowing it to be rehomed.

Slubber, try and see it for another viewpoint, please.

Compared to those who don't do any of those things, of course the type of dog owner is more responsible, but that is not the point.

The point is that responsible potential dog owners have two options, to buy a dog or rehome one. If they make the decision to buy one, that is one dog less for rehoming, therefore one more for being killed, so yes, they are responsible, indirectly, for their death. It doesn't mean they are immoral necessarily, as they don't necessarily know this, but the fault is still there.

As for people wanting a particular breed, especially a pedigree one, what possible justification can there be for this other than vanity? When we are talking about vanity versus the life of a living creature, morally it is clear which should come first.

Lastly, you say that you have lost respect for Valhalla as a poster and source of knowledge about dogs. This is just ludicrous. Just because she has a different viewpoint from you about this issue does not mean she is any less knowledgeable. That remark just makes you look silly.

So what you are saying val is that this of us who want to own a dog, and have it as puppy should ONLY be allowed to get one from rescue?

Because sending a message out that if you are a feckless eejit who hasn't bothered to have their dog or bitch neutered and oops here's a litter of puppies but never mind eh, people can only get their puppies fro rescue now and not from folk who are carefully and lovingly breed their dogs to the best standard, that's going to solve the problem of too many puppies being born isn't it?????

there are some people who want things from their dog that they are unlikely to get from a resuce - possible yes, likely no.

certainly if you want to show or compete a rescue is unlikely to do it.

but i agree the huge majority of dog buyers could home a rescue. there is a minority that couldn't.

in order to have breeds of dog, someoe has to bred pedigree dogs - and have set breeding programmes designed to improve the breed.. otherwise that gets lost.

I do believe that commercial breeding of dogs and the whole notion of a 'licenced' commercial breeder is wrong - commercial breeding should not be legal an there should be no licensing of it (that is premises licenced to have more than 5 breeding bitches)

what loopy says about inherited disease is tosh though, X-breeds are not immune. Unfortuantely plenty of X-breeds with inherited diease about to prove that...

if you want to buy a puppy try a rescue first. that isn't unreasonable to ask.

I agree with most of what Slubber and flinging have said.

While I completely agree that breeders need to be controlled more vigorously, for some of the reasons given above we didn't want to get a dog from a rescue. We did think about it but ultimately we wanted a puppy whose Mum and previous owner we could meet and be sure they had been cared for properly. My children are too important to be put at risk by a dog with an unknown history, and we wanted a specific breed that has a reputation for all the things we wanted from our dog. We did a huge amount of research, and did everything absoulutely properly as far as I know, although I accept that plent of people would rightly disagree with the site I used to find our dog. Ultimately though, for us, it's the dog we ended up with that matters, and he is absolutely wonderful.

I don't think it's fair that we be accused of indirectly killing dogs. The stories that you have shared Valhalla break my heart and I respect that you are passionate about what you do. I hope that if I ever needed any doggy advice you'd help, you being the resident expert on here, but I actually don't think every family is suitable for a rescue dog. It would do the dog no favours to be given to the wrong family.

Yes Slubber it would. It is called suply and demand. As long as there is demand breeders will supply. If they suddenly found themselves having to turn to rescue to rehome the pups they bred, they would stop breeding.

I think more people should rescue aswell. Both my dogs were unofficial rescues, I spotted my boy being chucked into a park lake by his owner numerous times, as a tiny pup FFS, and I could never buy a dog I don't think. Although there are some breeders who care about their animals, so many just see the pound signs, and don't even bother checking what kind of homes the pups will go to. They make me sick

i just found 2 dog centres, i have a child free day tomorrow, will look around.

Brilliant APB. :) Good luck and have fun!

but i do repeat it has to be a pup, i have 2 young children and don't want to take the risk