To ask my friend to better discipline her child

[MrsTwiceslice]

Namechange for this btw.
A friend and I regularly hang out at each other's houses on our days off, with our kids.
We have boys of similar ages, and the idea in the beginning was that they could play together.
We were "mum" friends initially-We met at a playgroup, but now we have become pretty good real friends. I like her a lot.

The trouble is her son. He is very physical which manifests itself at some point (every time we see them) in pushing or hitting my ds, or other agressive acts.

My ds used to find this very distressing,(he is a gentle soul) but he has sort of got used to fending off this child, and kind of puts up with it.

This makes me feel quite upset, because I don't think he, or anyone, should have to put up with being pushed over, having their hair pulled or whatever.

I feel powerless to stop it because I cannot discipline the child for my friend.

If I see the other boy do anything like this (or see he is about to) I just stop his hand and say a firm "no!"

If my friend sees it, she says "no pushing!" or "if you do that again you will have to go on the naughty step."

The things is she often gives him several warnings before anything happens.

The other day her ds pushed my ds into the side of a (stationary) bike, really viciously, and she just said to him "say sorry and kiss Joe"
Is it me, or does that warrant more than a "say sorry"?

This child obviously realises that he can do anything he likes, he just has to say sorry afterward.

My friend has made comments in the past about how "overexcited "her son gets to see mine, which is true, he does like my ds, and my son (inexplicably) likes him, otherwise I wouldn't bring him round at all.

I don't think it is just high spirits though, and if I were her he would go on the naughty step EVERY TIME he pushed or hit. (it happens with other children too, not just my ds)

Should I just stop hanging out with them (I feel myself about to blow and I don't want to create a bad situation) or should I try and speak to my friend about the way she (doesn't) discipline her son?

This is very difficult and I really understand how irritating and unfair it is. Yesterday, our 3 yr old niece snatched a toy from my husband, was cheeky and hit him on the hand with the toy. Parents both sat there and did nothing.

My husband said firm "no, you don't hit people".

Now the child's mother (SIL) has fallen out with us and told my husband not to speak to her child like that!

All very annoying. Especially difficult when child is not at all disciplined by parents and it ends up affecting other people - ie.your son

Perhaps have a word with her, or limit your visits.

Interested to hear other opinions

When you say 'no' to him when you see him doing something, could you not say that if he continues to do xyz, then he won't be allowed to ocme over and then make an excuse to your friend to cancel the next play date. You could also try the route 'how would you like it if DS did that to you?'. Generally I don't like to 'parent' someone else's children but it would be a shame to lose the friendship. A chat might go OK but I think if you thought she would take it well you would have done it already.

Or you could buy her a Super Nanny book that explains about one warning and then consequence! Shame we've just missed Christmas!

Hopefully someone with better advice will be along soon!

I kind of have tried those things, but with this boy-he is 3-a future punishment does not seem to register with him.

One time he was at ours by himself (I was watching him for an hour) and I did take the opportunity to try and get through to him. I think I said something like "would you like it if I pushed you?" He just looked a bit stunned!
I can,t say I wasn't tempted..(nobody flame me-I didn't)

One time my friend asked him why he had pushed my ds (i think she was annoyed that my ds wasn't playing with her son enough and wanted him to say something along those lines) Her ds said "because I want to push him over".

Nice.

If you are than unhappy with her son playing with your son then put a stop to it as you can't change how someone else parents. You could say something, but be prepared to put her back up and have a row anyway.

To be honest, though, it doesn't sound like she does nothing, just that she doesn't do as much as you would like her to.

E.g. - Child pushes, she says "No pushing" and says he will be punished if he does it again. What more would you want her to do?

When her DS pushed your son into the bike, she asked him to apologise and make up for it. You say this wasn't enough - again, what exactly were you expecting her to do?

I'm not clear from your post how old the children are, but if it bothers you that much, don't hang around with them.

xpost - they're 3. You'll meet many more when your DS gets to school. Meh.

They are both 3.

I would like her to follow thru on warnings. Often she says he will be punished if he does it again, but he isn't.

If her ds hurts my ds,as with the bike, as far as I am concerned that is an immediate naughty step thing(or whatever you do).

I think you should be firmer with him yourself. If he's at your house, for example, I think it's reasonable to say 'if you push ds again I'll have to ask you to leave.' It would be awkward to carry it through but I think it would be worth it. If your friend gets offended, and she might well, it's a shame but you are going to end up avoiding her anyway if nothing changes so it's a risk worth taking.

If you are looking after him alone at your house then it's fine to use the naughty step or similar as you see fit.

I do think you could be doing your friend and her son a favour by taking a firm line about his behaviour to your ds. I had a friend with a similarly boisterous son and I know people avoided them because their children didn't want to play with him. If someone had been more upfront with her about the problem maybe she would have dealt with it sooner and he would have been happier too.

Having been on both sides of this particular fence, my only advice is that - on the next playdate - you ensure that you are in the same room, at very close proximity and can intervene ^before the push/smack/bite occurs (in my experience you could actually see it coming quite often, although not always). (We would usually be drinking coffee and yapping rather than engaged in play with them IYSWIM!)

Intervention should be in the form of distraction "oh, that looks like a nice weapon toy!" or just reinforcing how nicely they are playing, or when one is kind/gentle with the other.

My DS seemed to really thrive on the reaction and/or attention he got when he clocked someone with a toy, therefore I tried to not make a big fuss, whilst still reinforcing "no, we don't hit".

It is tricky.

Think its irrelevent how old they are, its never to early to be taught how to behave and to play nicely with others.

I would say something to the child and the mother, have done so in the past and will continue to do so.

Cannot stanbd this attitude of parents who let their children go round upsetting others, pushing/biting/hitting and do nothing.
Take some fucking responsibility and do some parenting fgs (not you op just general lazy parents with little darling/horrors who cant bear to say the word no to them)

Its a tricky one. I have been in this place and was patient beyond belief as she seemed to care enough to be half-heartedly doing something about it, though it wasn't working. She then turned it round on us and said the problem only occured with my son and therefore it was our fault in the first place as he was rewarding him with a reaction!

We nearly fell out about it - I found to retreat slightly for a few weeks after a bad incident worked, as the penny dropped. I also turned it back to her and asked her what she thought the way forward was, and as a fairly reasonable person she could really only come out with things that she had to change, not us.

People may tell you not to spend any time with her but it really can be awkward and you do come to rely on people like this for your sanity at times and it is frustrating when what was a nice tidy arrangement becomes the main problem in your life.

I certainly think in your house if your child is getting hurt or your property disrespected, you are fine to step in if she's not to send the message that its not going unnoticed. A half decent person will then up the ante in terms of intervention and avoidance rather than just let you take over so see how that goes.

mosschops - I can be arsed to disipline my boy, I spend a considerable amount of time every day doing it but he is so boisterous that if I disciplined every push/ hug (bear hugs are his speciality) he and I would never go anywhere at all - we choose our outings as it is.
I have read supernanny and many other avenues of advice and at 3.6 he is getting a lot better but I have to say that he is a boisterous, over exuberant boy and that is the reason he misbehaves, not because he has lazy parents.
OP, if your son is not bothered then he is clearly used to this boy and seems to like him, you seem to have three choices, grit your teeth so long as your son is not getting hurt, speak to the boys mother and ask her to do more (I would be horrified if a friend did this to me), or see less of them.

He probably doesnt react well to a future punishment because, from what you said, his mum isnt great a following through. Maybe you need to do it and follow through and maybe next time he'll listen better.

My son is a right pain in the bum when we go to my friends house sometimes, but we'd both rather keep our friendship, she knows if hes upset her DS at school she can tell me and I discuss it with my DS and it usually stops for a while. The other week I marched him home from there because he wouldnt behave, and I knew my friend would soon get fed up with us because of it. On the flip side my friend is a realist and realises that her son has his moments too!

as someone else said, at school it happens all the time, and theres nothing you can do about it, like the kid in the class who always has nits, you cant do anything but its annoying!

Thats sounds quite similar Tatty.
And it's true what you say about my sanity (tenuous grasp though it is!)

I sometimes also feel like she is blaming my son, kind of, as she will sometimes be snide about how my son likes her son's toys more than her son, and how her son wouldnt push him if only my son would pay him more attention.

To me that is ridiculous-all 3 year olds love other people's toys , and they often play alongside each other-it's normal.

Also I dont believe that if you are not getting the attention you want you should be allowed to shove and hit!! I don't get enough attention, and I never hit anyone

When they are at my house I don't tolerate any destructive behaviour, I try and get the boys to tidy up their toys at the end of the day, and I do find myself saying "no" to her ds a lot.
When I do it she does try and step up her firmness a bit. I think a lot of the time she just cant be bothered unless I force it, so yes maybe I should take over a bit, which would make my feelings known a bit more.

There's not a lot you can do here. I also have a friend with a physical daughter and we've just had to stop seeing each other with the children. After a few times of getting together and watching her DD shove mine around and my friend do nothing, I just stopped accepting her invitations and stopped inviting her to mine. Sometimes we see each other at the park or when her DD is in nursery but otherwise no. I thought some time apart would stop it, but when we went to her DD's birthday party, the child spent a good part of the day trying to stop my DD playing with anything.

I just told her I didn't think the girls were playing that well together and that we should meet out or without them.

I most definitely make sure that each incident is met with a firm no, removal of toy, removal from situation if needed...but I don't offer punishment (probably because my son is 2...). By 3, I would expect them to understand that their friend will not come to play if they are mean.

And I agree that you shouldn't be allowed to shove/hit if you are not getting attention, which is why I attempt to not give attention to that behaviour.

I forgot to mention that the other thing that worked for my older DS was to make a right old fuss of the other child whenthey have been hit. Just a brisk "no, we don't hit" to the attacker and then a big fuss of the other child "oh poor DS friend, I'm sure DS didn't mean to upset you and hurt you. Shall we look at a book or can you show me what you are playing with?"

I think the best thing to do is to concentrate on teaching your child to be assertive as he will without doubt have other children like this to deal with throughout his school life in the future.

One thing is guaranteed-you can have no influence over how others parent their children.

I had a friend like that and we just met without the children. You can't change her.

Teuchnuts, to my mind removal of a toy is punishment.

This boy doesn't seem to relish attention from his behavior-in fact he is quite sneaky: I have often caught him in a sly bout of pinching of hair pulling.

The whole thing about when they get to school they will just have to deal with it just depresses me tbh.

I know you can't change the way people parent their children really, but I do think that adults(teachers incuded) should take some responsibility for the way some children treat others.
I mean, at what age does it cease to be "boisterousness" and become bullying?

You think that's bad? SIL's 4 year old chucked a giant wooden toy at ds (1 year) and she said: "oh you didn't mean it, did you? that's not nice, oh well no use making a fuss about it" (followed by giggling on her part). In no way was it an accident, she picked it up and stood over him and made a face and swung it right at him. Didn't so much as ask if he was alright!

I agree with amberleaf - you need to teach your boy to be assertive here, this boy won't be the only one. Model what to do and ask the other boy to leave if there's more than one incident or anything particularly vicious.

Teach him the skills to say no, take it back etc... but protect him if that's not working.

Just realised I never posted my earlier post -It just said am in a similar situation.

Doing six things at once

My brother had this (parents tell the story). Mum's friend had a little boy who always hit my brother at 3. One day my dad came home from work early to see the boy hit my brother and my brother (for once) turned and hit him back pretty hard. My dad, infront of the child's mum, said "Good boy, standing up for yourself!" The other boy was crying and the mum didn't bring him round again when my dad was likely to be there! Friendship was damaged but dad was sick of hearing mum complain.

I have to say all dd's friends are pretty good but if the kids play up all of us mums are happy for each other to discipline each other's kids depending on who sees it. (these are close friends - I wouldn't dream of interfering with people I know less well, although in YOUR home you could say, "no, we don't do that in this house and if you do it again you'll go on the step." Your friend might be embarrassed to be firm infront of you.

My CM thinks I am very patient - it's only because I don't like the idea of her seeing me shout at dd infront of her.

Had similar with a friend. Her DS would push/hit my son. It just got to a point where it was easier to not see them for a while. They play together fine now that they are a bit older (both are 4.8) and have done for a good few months.

I did tell my DS to push the other boy back though if he was pushed first (I know I probably shouldn't but I got very fed up with him being placid and taking it all).

Why not use the bike incident as a final straw? Next time she tries to arrange a play date say something along the lines of not if her son is going to continue to push your son around. Point out how upsetting it is for both your DS and you to have him constantly beating him up and ask her if she would like it if your son did it to hers.

I say this becasue when I was much older, 8-9 one of my so called friends was a bitch and a bully and the only reason we kept getting thrown together was becasue our mums were friends. She was cruel to me, hit me, scratched me and my mum new about if but both she and the girls mum sat back and did nothing. My was as weak as dog shit and i wish she'd fucking said somethnig and never taken me back to that house again. The fact taht I still remember it now at the age of 30 says it all.

Don't let her get away with it.

^ Sorry should have said my "mum" was as weak as dog shit!

If you actually say 'better discipline' her child you could very well ruin your friendship no one likes thier parenting being criticised.
I would avoid meeting up with the kids.