to ask those of you with good sleeping dcs...

[RueLaChesty]

to jump on over to the sleep topic and help some folk out if you have spare time please? Especially if your dcs were previous bad sleepers.

Aibu moves so fast and you are bound to get a response straight away but i know there will be some mums, like me, who have posted for help in sleep section and have sat there constantly checking phones waiting for a response that might save them whilst dc's scream in the background!

I understand why they use sleep deprivation as a form of torture!!

While i'm here does anyone have any magic advice on how to get a 9mo sleeping through?

I'm so with LeQueen there. They do get to an age where you can have an almost zero tolerance to bullshit.

I've seldom uttered anything other than "Go to sleep. You are tired" in the middle of the night to my two. But its true. If you wake up crying, you are not ready to wake up.

I also agree with Onceamai that some kids are just worse at it.

Its true that most parents will get something to vex them or at least test them. Okay so both mine are excellent sleepers but at the moment my son is pretty picky with food, and its not for lack of serving it up anyway etc etc. We'll get there. He might get a little thin in the meantime as he will break before me. He's got some contingency.

DD is younger and fine thus far but who knows. She might get picky too. Or clingy. She might be a biter, or a hitter. There will no doubt be something. And if there's not, she's bound to be a teenage bitch...

Another one that really needs some tips, DS is 5 and has slept through about 5 times in his life, I am v sleep deprived! We have ended up co-sleeping but just because so exhausted with the waking every night.

Think with it being New Year etc will be good time to work at it, although recovering from flu at moment so probably will put off..

I've been battling this quietly but what the hell...

If my 13 mo DD wakes at 5am and won't go back to sleep, then eats an adult-sized bowl of porridge for breakfast, could she be hungry? She eats like a horse all day.

I spent the whole of the Xmas/NY period doing CC (sh*ttest Xmas ever) as she had picked up the habit of needing a bottle to go back to sleep after she was very sick (3-4 times a night) and we were going mad.
CC (sort of) worked, as in she still wakes and screams but doesn't need us. But now she's waking at 5am, bright as a button and wanting to start her day. She goes to bed at 7.30pm.

It's very nice to see her as I work ft but am starting to die of exhaustion again... But if I give her a bottle am I starting the rot again?

I agree with LeQueen - routine and consistency is the key!

We had a nightmare first few weeks with DD where she was really collicky in the evenings and would not settle. We were keeping her downstairs with us.

At five weeks, we decided we needed to reclaim the evenings.

We started bath, bottle, bedding and were amazed that on the first night she slept 8 - 3:30am. We tried dream feeding a couple of times, but it didn't stop the 3am waking so we decided to just go with it.

Gradually the 3am waking got later and later and by 12 weeks she was going all the way through.

We had blips - about 4 nights each month (coinciding with growth spurts) she would wake up and want a bottle. Because we identified the growth spurt, we felt it better to feed her. Usually after the third or fourth night she would be going through again, however, she sometimes got into the 'habit' of waking up, so on the fifth night there would be no milk and we'd stay with her until she settled again.

She still has the occassional short periods of days when she will wake in the night, but they are few and far between now and still equate to illness or growth spurts.

I saw that you said you have a routine but that the bed time can vary up to 8:30. Does the 2.4 year old have a nap in the day still? If not and she is getting up for breakfast at 7:30, she could very well be overtired - 2 - 3 year olds generally need about 13 hours sleep a day. Even if the younger child is sleeping in the day, she could still be not getting enough (at that age, my DD slept about 16 hours a day including naps - soemtimes more).

Overtiredness will lead to poor sleep patterns. I would bring the bed time forward with both children being in bed by 7pm, after bath and drink, with lights out being no later than 7:15pm. Stick with this rigidley until they are both going to sleep quickly and sleeping through - you can then become a little more relaxed if needs be.

Finally - does the 9month old sleep in blankets or a sleeping bag? If you are not using a sleeping bag, it might be worth giving it a go, my DD slept much better in hers - it was also easier to settle her if she did need to be picked up.

HTH

Oh god, really LeQueen? How long did it last for?

< puts fingers in ears hoping LeQueen says '2 months' >

CC worked for me with both DSs. Mine were both over a year when I did it though. 9 monmths may be a bit little. As someone else said - it doesn't mean you IGNORE them and leave them to cry. Just don't pick up or feed. You do need to go in and check nothing is really wrong. Quick comforting, soft kind reassuring words and then 'nightnight' and leave them to it. Left mine to cry for 10 mins - then go in and check - then 12 min then go in again and check etc. My two were almost exactly the same. Cried for 40 mins the first night - 30 mins the second night, 10 mins the last night - no waking up on night 4. Life was revolutionised.

Three nights of a bit of crying was FAR better for us all than night after night after night of no sleep for any of us!

oh... and we all still love each other!

Bedtime routine once they are through the first six or eight weeks or so. Bath, low lights, soft voices, etc.
Sleeping bags.
No feeding at night after about seven months. Water only.
Babies in own cots from as soon as is humanly possible--no co-sleeping.
No fussing over them if they wake in the night unless, obviously, they are distressed or ill.

Mine slept from about 9-5 from about seven or eight months onwards using this system, and some very gentle (and brief) 'training' when my son was seven months. Literally, one night of setting timers. They have always been good sleepers and happy to sleep anywhere and have done well academically. I felt much better when they were both sleeping and I could, too.

That is seriously depressing LeQueen. < sob! >

Those of you who did CC, can you think why my DD might still be screaming and sobbing and roaming around her cot 10 days later? (albeit for 4-5 mins at the most).

with DS I accepted that sleep would be quite hard to come by, which made the lack of it somewaht a little easier.

when he turned 1 I stopped taking him out of his cot when he cried for my attention. If he cried, I would go to him, check all was well and bid him goodnight :) he soon understood that he would not be coming out to play. I used to play really quiet classical music in the background, and would have had a light display toy if I could have afforded one, but he was fine without.

I think that when implementing a change you need to expect a period of turbulence, which is easier when you only have one child

We did controlled crying at about 9 months - DS was fast asleep by 8pm within a week - and waking up from 2am - 5am as bright as a button! Eventually we went with the flow and let him stay up with us - read him his story at 9.30 and let him settle himself down afterwards - stayed in bed and usually nearly asleep by 10.30 to 11 when we went up. Always bounced out of bed at 6.30ish and has never needed more than that (although of course as a baby he had a sleep after lunch until he was 21 months).

Still gets up on the first call and always has - he's 16 and it won't be long now until he comes home with the milk!!

So today was my first day back at work and I was on my knees with tiredness!

DD2 was up at 12:30am and was awake for nearly 3 hours!

lenak DD2 is in a growbag.

Our bedtime routine is the same every night but the 8:30pm bedtime is when she is in bed by 7pm but then lies tossing and turning and singing and trying to keep herself awake. So always in bed by 7.

She doesn't always nap, but sometimes if we're going anywhere in the car she will so if I know we are going out I try and plan it to be in the morning so she isn't sleeping too late. Today they were at nursery and DD1 had a nap and tonight she went to bed at 7:15pm and fell asleep 20 mins ago. But I am getting closer to the door when sitting in the room so tomorrow night I'll try just popping out the room and see what happens.

Really I don't see DD1 as much of a concern as her sleep issue is now manageable.

DD2, right, where do i start. Last night she went down herself, can't remember how long it took her, maybe half an hour. Very well fed yesterday. and as I said earlier awoke at 12:30am. DP left her 5 mins and heard she was getting worse so went downstairs to get bottle of water. By the time he came back up she was going beserk. So he went in and cuddled her and tried to lie her back down! This went on for an hour. Eventually I screamed at him to just pick her up. He went and got her just a few ounce of milk. She took that but although stopped screaming just wouldn't settle and would start again the minute DP tried to put her down. It was like an electric shock everytime she touched the mattress. So 3 hours later she was in a deep enough sleep to put down again.

Tonight she went in her cot after usual routine and I sat for a few minutes, she was lying just gurgling away. I went to the toilet then came back in and she was sleeping!! So she has no problems self settling!

So, if we were to try controlled crying is it pointless if she is self settling or do we do it for the night wakenings? Or is there anything else we can try?

Or do I do as another poster said and accept that bad sleeping is their "thing"??

Little DD is nearly 5 months now and has gone from sleeping 7 till 3, feed then till sometime between 6 and 7 to being all over the place! She is still breastfed, so I guess there is little I can do on that score until she is weaned, planning on tsarting that next month. We're half co-sleeping, as in she comes in with us when she gets really unsettled in the middle of the night.

We have a good bedtime routine that she accepts and has had since around 6 wks, but just recently she has taken to waking at the end of each sleep cycle, approx 45 mins. Sometimes, like tonight, she wakes up screaming which is really unlike her...she isn't a crier.

For us she is still a little young to start sleep training, CC or whathaveyou, perhaps if she is still be a (very cute) pain in the bum in 4 or 5 months time I'll get harsher, she'll be more receptive then even if it is tough for a while. Until then, I guess we just keep doing what we're doing! She is going through so many changes, developing so much at the moment that I guess her little mind is churning.

My 3 year old is still awake with no signs of tiredness. Spent nearly 3 years trying to get her to sleep, stressful and unsuccessful. We have now accepted she just does not need as much sleep as normal children. She goes to bed around 11 (I know, I know), is thriving and we are so much less stressed without the endless nightime stress.

LRC it could still be painful teeth if she's in that much distress. You know yourself if you've got a pain you can get to sleep initially because you are so tired and then it wakes you up in early hours and it's hard to ignore. Have you tried bonjella on gums at silly o'clock waking? Personally I wouldn't offer any milk, just water. She'll learn that if she makes enough fuss and keeps going, eventually she'll get what she wants, sorry. Good luck for tonight!

Trouble is it is quite an emotive topic. I use a variety of techniques to achieve sleeping children, both at home and when working with parents. I am open to any method, and this includes 2 min checking (ignoring crying) for which I receive endless criticism. It wears you down similarly to the Breast/bottle debates.

If anyone wants to hire me for sleep training which doesn't use on particular method then I am thinking of rekindling my sleep training/behaviour management consultancy. I'm just not too sure if people still use sleep trainers these days.

In my opinion, getting a LO to sleep through is a highly individual matter which relies on ascertaining the style of the family and personality of the child.

Regimen works very well, but it can go totally against the style and instinct of parent and child.

PIQ last night was slightly better in that dd2 only woke up at 5am! She was awake for 45 mins and just gurgled happily. HUGE difference and i went to bed at 10 so got 7 hours sleep minus a 5 min wakening from dd1 who then started her day at 6am.

Dd2 has been very grizzly today though and has swollen gums etc but is asleep and we have the gel/powders on standby. Dd1 also asleep so hopefully tonight will be better.

Hobbgoblin, i totally agree. Its a very individual issue and not just between families but each child too. We are much more regimented with dd2 than we ever were with dd1 and have the same sleep issues even though we went 'by the book' this time round.

I think i'm just going to do what we can to get through next 3 months til dd1 is a year. I think in that time we can get dd1 to sleep through then we can address dd2's sleep again and see what changes we can make.

Thanks for everyones advice. Its been helpful hearing others experiences.

You had 7 hours RLC? Fantastic long may it last.

hobbgoblin, I am interested in your sleep training job. Do stressed parents really employ sleep trainers? Can I be nosey and ask what qualifications you need? I feel a career move coming on

PinkIceQueen, I had to close my business when my relationship broke down about 4 years ago. I have done some similar work in the meantime but only ad hoc. I'm really not sure if people pay for this type of help like they did when I started up. Then it was a real new idea, and I was asked to appear on TV and on SKY news' website so it was certainly fashionable what with SWMNBN and all! I think it's maybe a bit old hat these days???

I think a lot of qualified nannies or nurses tend to go into this so with those types of qualification (NNEB for example) but really it is about experience and ability to communicate well with parents and children.

I have a DipHE in Primary Education but this wouldn't have enabled me to do the job well. I relied on personal skills such as perceptiveness and empathy alongside training and experience I've had working as a community support worker for a children's charity as well as support work experience within a mental health organisation.

Hope that helps. It's lovely work - if you can get it! :)

Thanks for the info hobbgoblin. Sorry to hear about the relationship break down.

I work with children now, and have relevant experience, you just made me think.

I'm being a bit thick, I can't for the life of me think what SWMNBN means?