Stopping my mother from seeing my daughter

[lalaandcj]

My mother and I have never really gotten on, our relationship has never really been what you would describe as close. When I found out I was pregnant just over 5 years ago, we were not even on speaking terms, but I decided that my baby should know her Grandmother and so I resolved to try and put our differences aside in order for that to happen. Our relationship has never really gotten any better, but her relationship with my Daughter has generally been very good.

My mother used to have my Daughter overnight on a Monday and watch her on a Tuesday while I was at work, and my Grandparents would have my Daughter overnight on a Wednesday and watch her on a Thursday, because I could not afford to pay a full weeks nursery fees (I'm a single mum, with no contribution for my Daughters dad.) This arrangement seemed to go okay, there were a few ups and downs, I had a few problems with the way my mother behaved with my child sometimes as she tended to treat her like she was her daughter, not mine, making decisions without consulting me and even telling my Daughter to keep secrets from me on occassions when she knew that I wouldn't agree with what she had done. There were also times when she would completely disregard things that I had said, even silly things, for example, my Daughter is a huge Disney Princess fan, and so when the Princess and the Frog was shown at the cinema I asked my mother not to take my Daughter to see it as I had promised that I would take her, and when she returned from my mothers house the following day she had been taken to watch it. Although these things did bother me, I just put it down to her being an overbearing Grandparent and short of stopping her from seeing my Daughter, which I did not want to do, as I didn't want to do anything that might upset my Daughter, there wasn't a lot that I could do about it.

However, my Daughter recently started full time school and I did not think it would be fair on her to continue sleeping at other peoples houses during term-time as I want her to be in a proper routine. Also, my daughter had started asking why I didn't pick her up from nursery every day and why she had to sleep at Nana and Grandma's house all the time, so I promised her that when she started 'big school' I would take her to, and collect her from, school everyday and she would spend every night at home in her own bed. I told both my mother and my Grandparents about this at the time and no-one seemed to have a problem with it.

As the new School term approached in September I tried to come to agreements with both my mother and my Grandparents so that they could still see my Daughter every week. My Grandparents agreed to come over to our house on a Wednesday afternoon and have dinner with us, so that they could continue to see my Daughter on a regular basis, and I asked my mother if she would like to have my Daughter on Monday afternoons every week between 4-7 but my mother became quite aggressive, saying that she wanted to have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7, a Tuesday afternoon from 4-7, and to have my daughter overnight every Fri until 6pm on a Sat and if I didn't agree she was going to go and see a Solicitor. I then offered to let her have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7 and on a Tuesday afternoon from 4 until half past 5 (to take my Daughter to her Ballet Class) as a compromise.

After this disagreement my daughter would become quite aggressive with me when she returned from spending time with my mother, throwing terrible temper tantrums and telling me that I was nasty and that she hated me, I put it down to the fact that she was worried about starting at a new school, but then one day she came home and said to my Grandmother 'My mummy doesn't care about me, she only cares about herself' and when my Grandmother asked her who had said this to her she replied that Nana had said it. This comment had a terrible effect on my Daughter, she became very clingy and would no longer sleep in her own bed at night, she was also very upset. I tried to decide what to do for the best and thought that maybe if I spoke to my mother and told her the effect that those words had had on my Daughter, she might stop, my mother denied ever saying it, but things did seem to start to improve.

When my daughter started school things seemed to be going okay with the new routine, then after 2 weeks I received a letter from a solicitor saying that my mother wanted contact on Monday and Tuesday afternoons from 4-7 and overnight contact once a fortnight from 4pm on a Friday until 6pm on a Saturday. The letter also clearly stated that my mother had told the solicitor that I had stopped all contact between her and my daughter, before my Daughter started school and that I was continuing to refuse her access. I really did not know what to do, but I decided that if she was willing to lie to a Solicitor to try to get her own way and threaten to take me to Court, then it was more than likely that she had been saying things to my Daughter to try to upset her and me, so I decided that I was no-longer comfortable with her having my Daughter unsupervised, as I no longer trusted her to behave in an appropriate manner around my child. At this point (in September) i stopped all contact.

Four months later, things have gone from bad to worse, she has made terrible accusations against me, saying that I have deliberately hurt my Daughter and that she is going to phone Social Services on me. She has threatened to go on the Jeremy Kyle show, and when I told her that there was no way that I would go on there with her, she told me she didn't care, she was only going on to tell the whole world what a terrible person I am, she has told countless lies to my friends and family about me (thankfully most of them know that it is all lies), and since we are now going to Court for a contact order, she is threatening to sue me for her costs, which are going to be at least £1500.

I am sorry for all the rambling, but I wanted to put down as much of the background information as I can think of. There is more, but I don't want to go on too much, because I really need some advice about how to deal with this, I can't afford a solicitor and I'm not entitled to Legal aid because I work part time. I just wondered if anyone has been in a similar situation and can help me, I just want to do what's best for my Daughter, and I can't see how making her spend time with someone who is willing to behave like this can be what's best for her. I also don't understand how a court can force me to allow my mother to see my daughter when she has behaved in such a way. Please help, i'm at my wits end now and really do not know what to do!

Thanks!

Giddypickle, How may times, the op didn't cut contact until the GM's behaviour became totally out of order,, she even still agreed to extra time as a comprimise, which really isn't that much less than what was arranged before, if you re - read it, you will see that the only amount that has been cut out was an overnight stay, not that much TBH.
The GM then made the decision to contact a solicitor without telling the OP, and LIED to the solicitor about previous arrangements.
THAT, is when contact was cut, and if you think that is unreasonable, well i doubt there is much else that will make you see or understand what i have said.

She ( GM ) should of accepted the reasonable contact offered, any sensible person would realise that the GM would of been offered overnight stays when possible, ie, when it doesn't affect schooling etc, or the op needs some extra help.

It is actually probably detrimental to the DD's schooling and routine now she has started school to spend so much time away from her mum for overnight visits when she has actually asked to be looked after by her own mother more.
I also think it is unreasonable to expect the mother to bend to her mothers will, even if she has helped her out considerably, she wasn't cut out from the outset, the position the GM is in now, is entirely down to her own selfish actions.

And like i said, i have my suspisions that the GM is more angry about the fact she can not get her own way then about the actual amount of contact offered.
I can not see much of a difference to what the previous arrangement was before.
Over reaction is an understatement.

Oh, and i apologise for the 'stupid' comment, you are right giddy, totally uncalled for.

I think the OP is being judged unfairly by a lot of people here.

Yes, she had an arrangement for her DD to have regular overnights which worked for a while but became impractical once her DD started school. Her DD said she wanted to stop the overnights. The OP offered very regular contact, just not weekly overnight contact. The OP was being very generous in this offer, most GPs get a lot less.

The GM is not a parent. She is also barking.

Personally, I would not allow unsupervised contact at all as the GM seems very disturbed and toxic and may well do something drastic like snatching the child.

GPs have very few legal rights and a court would never impose overnight access in a case like this.

It is clear that the GM is funding her own legal costs and in that circumstance the solicitor will send any kind of letter that she wants as she is paying for it.

She doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

The child wants her MUM to pick her up from school.

She wants to stay at her home, with her mum, in her own bed. The child actually ASKED for this arrangement.

Surely THAT is all that matters here.

why do people insist on saying OP cut all contact? 2 days a week with no sleep over is not cut all contact! Seriously.

GPs have very few legal rights and a court would never impose overnight access in a case like this.
She doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

You have no way of knowing that to be the case though, when people walk into a court room they put their trust in a person seemed suitable to resolve problems when the parties themselves cannot. I personally would avoid ending up there by digging your heels in because who knows the judge maybe a granny themselves and the mother may have a damn good solicitor.

Poor OP!!!

There is no way the OP is out of order or unreasonable in any way here. Her Mother and Grandparents looked after the OP's daughter, something mutually agreeable by the sounds of it, when it suited the OP's work arrangements and the child's schooling. When that arrangement no longer suited the OP or her daughter, the OP changed the arrangement and made a different arrangement that still enabled her Mother and Grandparents to see her daughter regularly. She didn't even stop contact when her Mother started behaving oddly and started bad mouthing her to her DD and has only questioned contact due to the fact her Mother is now threatening SS and has sent a solicitors letter.

My Mum used to loo after my DS one day a week while I worked, so I only had to pay childcare the rest of the time. Once I no longer needed that arrangement it stopped and I saw my Mum with my DS whenever it was convenient to us both, no regular arrangement, so sometimes several times a week, sometimes not for weeks. My Mum never felt her nose had been put out of joint, as why should she? Isn't that how things normally happen? Do people usually have set days where they have to see their Grandchildren? Do Grandparents usually have regular overnight contact and then throw their toys out of the pram if it is not given? Particularly as in this case it is what the child wanted.

What does the child's father say? What contact does he have? It sounds as though your child has seen far more of your mother and grandmother and very little of any male relatives.
I agree with those who say that it is very unlikely your mum will be able to get access more than once evening a week. I would be inclined to move away if possible. If that isn't possible then I would stop access at the moment claiming they are setting your daughter against you. You don't have to spend money on a solicitor and could just reply to your mum's solicitor that your daughter has requested to spend more time with you and she has been returning from your mums saying unpleasant things anbout you and as your relationship with your mum has deteriorated you don't wish your mum to see your daughter until the relationship between the 2 of you is better.
Your mother is unlikely to win this battle. I agree re telling school etc that no-one else is to pick your daughter up.
I think your mum is being very silly in alienating you like this.

It's slander / or libel

go to the police and log it as a complaint - give them the whole story and ask them to make a record and speak to her about it

write to mother exactly what you have put here - outline the string of events - make it clear that because of this you are withdrawing all contact

grandparents have no right to contact

Do get yourself to the CAB for some proper legal advice. Everyone is right that grandparents have very few rights but since your mother is buggering about with solicitor's letters, you need your own legal advice.

activate - slander/libel is not a criminal offence, it is a civil matter. The police would not be interested.

The OP would have to bring a civil court case (paid for herself as legal aid is not available for libel cases) and claim damages for loss of reputation. She would have to prove she suffered a financial loss.

In practice only very rich people bring libel cases as they are so expensive.

OP, can I repeat what I said about getting simple factual statements from the school and ballet teacher (or similar) stating your DM has been collecting/dropping your DD? Do it now, before memories fade or records lapse.

Her lie about "no contact" is in writing, easy to prove is a lie, and easy for people (SS, school, family...) to see for themselves with this simple evidence. It doesn't depend on your word or the balance of probability or someone having the patience to read a 50-page document.

Once you've established this, it can act as a brake every time your DM tries something on:
"Yes she's claiming X, but she's lied before."
"Yes I know it's hard to believe someone would behave like that, but she's done it before."

By the way, really sorry you're having to do any of this.

just for clarity, the DD went to her grandmother for over nights for 18 months? and was she watched by her grandmother before that? or was the period of watching just 18 months only?

and yy get to CAB asap

mjinsparklystockings, read: " and I asked my mother if she would like to have my Daughter on Monday afternoons every week between 4-7 but my mother became quite aggressive, saying that she wanted to have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7, a Tuesday afternoon from 4-7, and to have my daughter overnight every Fri until 6pm on a Sat and if I didn't agree she was going to go and see a Solicitor. I then offered to let her have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7 and on a Tuesday afternoon from 4 until half past 5 (to take my Daughter to her Ballet Class) as a compromise."

The GM is the one who wanted to have the GD longer on the night she has ballet class, so its not really an issue is it?
The OP was originally going to do the drop off, but because her mother wanted to have the GD longer, the OP let her do the drop off.
Where that comes across as the OP using her as a taxi service ( OP hasn't even stated she uses a car to get there btw ) i do not know.
Or were you just jumping to conlusions, and not reading the Post properly?

who said she is being a taxi service!?
It may be a walk, or a bus ride, and i have had some nice moments with my DC on a walk, or bus ride, so i think any extra time is a positive, even if its en route to somewhere else.
OP did not say the GM was picking her back up again either, so no you haven't read it properly.

The OP states that the GM wanted to have her longer, so from the offered contact initally of Mondays from 4-7pm the OP then agreed to let GM have GD on the tuesday( which wasn't offered at first ) from 4-5.30 including taking her to her Ballet class.
The GM wanted to have her on the Tuesday, i am sure she knew about the ballet class, so would of known that she probably would be dropping her off to the class anyway, especially if she wanted to have GD until 7pm.
It doesn't state the ballet class is at 4pm, it says she needs to be dropped of at 5.30 ish, so she will presumably have tea and 1.5 hrs with her GD on the tuesday evening.
That isn't picking up, dropping off, picking up and taking her home again is it?

And if you have a look again mjinsparklystokings, the solicitors letter states the GM is officially asking for Tuesdays to remain as a contact day, if she had a problem with being a 'taxi service' then wouldn't she of demanded a different day to have her on, so didn't have to drop her GD off and pick her up again?
Your reasoning doesn't really fit does it?

I freely admit that, when my children were younger, I used my mother (she was totally willing) as free childcare. It benefitted us both. It gave my husband and I more disposable income and we were able to give some of this to my mother for her to take the pre-school children on days out she otherwise couldn't have afforded.

My mother and I often disagreed about things...her ways of doing things were often different from ours. We compromised by agreeing that when she was alone with the children, what she said was law. When either my husband or I was present (or both) what we said was paramount, even if that happened to be in my mother's house. It wasn't easy, but it worked.

However, if I ever thought for a fraction of a second that my mother was poisoning my children against either or both of their parents I should have ceased contact immediately, even if that meant giving up work. I don't know how it works in law, but that to me would equate to child abuse. How any right-minded adult can so much as hint to a child that one or other of their parents doesn't put the child's needs above their own totally baffles me. Why would anyone who claims to love a child even consider hurting them in such a way?

Disgraceful!

Afaik, grandparents have few or no rights so don't panic but get some advice from CAB and get half an hour free appt from a solicitor to reassure yourself. And now that your mother has made it official you have a very good reason not to engage with her at all. Starting school was bound to change things - and right minded person would understand this - and you have been more than generous in the amount of midweek contact offered to your mother, but it is dd herself who requesting this change.

Tbh, given your own history with her and now her disgraceful threatening legal salvo to the detriment of dd (it's her needs she's representing not her gdd's) she sounds a poisonous piece of work.

I understand what people are saying regarding free childcare, however, I never once thought of it like that. To the person writing about my mother being a free taxi service, I should have stated in my original post that my mother had requested tuesdays in order to be able to take my daughter to dancing, as she had been with us on a few previous occasions and had said that she could see how much my daughter enjoyed it and wanted to continue to be a part of it. Although the dance lessons were an activity that I had organised as something fun that my daughter and I could do together, as I could no longer offer the overnight stays during term-time, I felt that it would be only fair of me to let her have access at that time. I understand what people are saying regarding my mothers behaviour around my daughter and that I should have stopped contact earlier, however, I have spent the majority of my life living without one or both (on occasion) of my parents and because of family situations I often did not get to see my grandparents (who I now have a great relationship with) as well, and with my daughters father not wanting to be involved in her life in any way and his family playing no role either, I wanted my daughter to know the rest of her family and although I did have genuine concerns about my mothers behaviour I kept telling myself that I was over-reacting, especially since she would deny everything and although our relationship is not great, I did not once think she would lie to me when it concerned my daughter. It was only when she lied to the solicitor that I realised that there was a good chance that she had been lying to me, and that was when I stopped all contact. I know some people may not agree with my actions but I can assure you it had nothing to do with not needing a free babysitter anymore, I just wanted to be a good parent and do what was and still is best for my daughter.