Stopping my mother from seeing my daughter

[lalaandcj]

My mother and I have never really gotten on, our relationship has never really been what you would describe as close. When I found out I was pregnant just over 5 years ago, we were not even on speaking terms, but I decided that my baby should know her Grandmother and so I resolved to try and put our differences aside in order for that to happen. Our relationship has never really gotten any better, but her relationship with my Daughter has generally been very good.

My mother used to have my Daughter overnight on a Monday and watch her on a Tuesday while I was at work, and my Grandparents would have my Daughter overnight on a Wednesday and watch her on a Thursday, because I could not afford to pay a full weeks nursery fees (I'm a single mum, with no contribution for my Daughters dad.) This arrangement seemed to go okay, there were a few ups and downs, I had a few problems with the way my mother behaved with my child sometimes as she tended to treat her like she was her daughter, not mine, making decisions without consulting me and even telling my Daughter to keep secrets from me on occassions when she knew that I wouldn't agree with what she had done. There were also times when she would completely disregard things that I had said, even silly things, for example, my Daughter is a huge Disney Princess fan, and so when the Princess and the Frog was shown at the cinema I asked my mother not to take my Daughter to see it as I had promised that I would take her, and when she returned from my mothers house the following day she had been taken to watch it. Although these things did bother me, I just put it down to her being an overbearing Grandparent and short of stopping her from seeing my Daughter, which I did not want to do, as I didn't want to do anything that might upset my Daughter, there wasn't a lot that I could do about it.

However, my Daughter recently started full time school and I did not think it would be fair on her to continue sleeping at other peoples houses during term-time as I want her to be in a proper routine. Also, my daughter had started asking why I didn't pick her up from nursery every day and why she had to sleep at Nana and Grandma's house all the time, so I promised her that when she started 'big school' I would take her to, and collect her from, school everyday and she would spend every night at home in her own bed. I told both my mother and my Grandparents about this at the time and no-one seemed to have a problem with it.

As the new School term approached in September I tried to come to agreements with both my mother and my Grandparents so that they could still see my Daughter every week. My Grandparents agreed to come over to our house on a Wednesday afternoon and have dinner with us, so that they could continue to see my Daughter on a regular basis, and I asked my mother if she would like to have my Daughter on Monday afternoons every week between 4-7 but my mother became quite aggressive, saying that she wanted to have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7, a Tuesday afternoon from 4-7, and to have my daughter overnight every Fri until 6pm on a Sat and if I didn't agree she was going to go and see a Solicitor. I then offered to let her have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7 and on a Tuesday afternoon from 4 until half past 5 (to take my Daughter to her Ballet Class) as a compromise.

After this disagreement my daughter would become quite aggressive with me when she returned from spending time with my mother, throwing terrible temper tantrums and telling me that I was nasty and that she hated me, I put it down to the fact that she was worried about starting at a new school, but then one day she came home and said to my Grandmother 'My mummy doesn't care about me, she only cares about herself' and when my Grandmother asked her who had said this to her she replied that Nana had said it. This comment had a terrible effect on my Daughter, she became very clingy and would no longer sleep in her own bed at night, she was also very upset. I tried to decide what to do for the best and thought that maybe if I spoke to my mother and told her the effect that those words had had on my Daughter, she might stop, my mother denied ever saying it, but things did seem to start to improve.

When my daughter started school things seemed to be going okay with the new routine, then after 2 weeks I received a letter from a solicitor saying that my mother wanted contact on Monday and Tuesday afternoons from 4-7 and overnight contact once a fortnight from 4pm on a Friday until 6pm on a Saturday. The letter also clearly stated that my mother had told the solicitor that I had stopped all contact between her and my daughter, before my Daughter started school and that I was continuing to refuse her access. I really did not know what to do, but I decided that if she was willing to lie to a Solicitor to try to get her own way and threaten to take me to Court, then it was more than likely that she had been saying things to my Daughter to try to upset her and me, so I decided that I was no-longer comfortable with her having my Daughter unsupervised, as I no longer trusted her to behave in an appropriate manner around my child. At this point (in September) i stopped all contact.

Four months later, things have gone from bad to worse, she has made terrible accusations against me, saying that I have deliberately hurt my Daughter and that she is going to phone Social Services on me. She has threatened to go on the Jeremy Kyle show, and when I told her that there was no way that I would go on there with her, she told me she didn't care, she was only going on to tell the whole world what a terrible person I am, she has told countless lies to my friends and family about me (thankfully most of them know that it is all lies), and since we are now going to Court for a contact order, she is threatening to sue me for her costs, which are going to be at least £1500.

I am sorry for all the rambling, but I wanted to put down as much of the background information as I can think of. There is more, but I don't want to go on too much, because I really need some advice about how to deal with this, I can't afford a solicitor and I'm not entitled to Legal aid because I work part time. I just wondered if anyone has been in a similar situation and can help me, I just want to do what's best for my Daughter, and I can't see how making her spend time with someone who is willing to behave like this can be what's best for her. I also don't understand how a court can force me to allow my mother to see my daughter when she has behaved in such a way. Please help, i'm at my wits end now and really do not know what to do!

Thanks!

The OP didn't "dump" her DM; the DM's contact hours reduced once the DD started school.

Only now, after the DM has sent a solicitor's letter, made threats and hurt the DD by slagging off her mother, is the OP is considering cutting contact.

As the OP doesn't share guardianship of her daughter, or reside together with her mother, there is no chance of her getting an order that would necessitate the police taking her child away.

You have the right to do or go where ever you wish, unhindered.

For what its worth, I would go into court and object to the idea of a contact order. Its entirely unnecessary, as you are willing and can prove history of sufficient contact. (At this instance, it would be useful to point out how the application is a waste of court time).

I only have her side of the story of course but I don't see why she'd tell me any lies.
My advice from what I have been told the courts have done, is avoid them and compromise together because it seems to get very nasty and not to mention expensive once solicitors and family courts become involved.

That's the way I read the situation ThisIsANiceCage.

This also stood out at me from the first post:

"my daughter had started asking why I didn't pick her up from nursery every day and why she had to sleep at Nana and Grandma's house all the time, so I promised her that when she started 'big school' I would take her to, and collect her from, school everyday and she would spend every night at home in her own bed."

The little girl had probably noticed other mummy's picking up their DC's from nursery but she goes to grandma's all the time.

The hell with the adults and what they want, if the child would rather be at mummy's house after school, that's all that matters.

I would write to the solicitors and offer her one overnight contact a month and the afterschool contact. if she doesn't accpet taht and proceeds to court, she'd mad and she risks being called unreasonable herself given the child's comments and the fact taht the arangements changed as the child started school.

mamatomany your friends story re being arrested sounds like a load of bollocks. There's no way they'd do that for the child's grandparents. A parent who has residence of a child is entiteld to take them on holiday unhindered. It's very rare to get a penal notice attached to such an order.

Either your firend is making it up or there's more to it than she's telling you.

I would agree that there have been some crazy judgements (or lack of) when it comes to family law cases. It is rare to hear of grandparents getting such power (for example, police will not get involved until there is a proven risk to the welfare of the child, even when there is an obvious breach).

My suggestion about moving juristiction is that sometimes, if you feel strongly enough, the only answer is to move far away.

I would never suggest that it is done in a secret hidden move.

Bottom line should be the welfare of OP's daughter, and as life goes on for them, the gran may up her game and wreak havoc on the OP's relationship with her daughter.

mamatomany, sorry but I agree that your friend is not being entirely forthcoming with informationn. A court would only demand such drastic action if it believed neglect or abuse was apparent.

Some mums do get into joing guardianship arrangements with their parents, to protect their child in the event that something should happen to them. This would give the gp's elevated powers, such as the Hague Convention. Maybe mamatomany's friend had similar going on? Who knows.

I'm shocked that you put up with what your mum was doing for so long, although I realise that you needed the childcare and understand that. Your mum though is toxic and I think you are doing the right thing in removing her from your daughters life. Your poor little girl must be so confused, your mum could have told her all sorts of bonkers things. I think what you daughter needs now is to be at home with her mum as much as possible and being reassured and loved. Ignore your mother, I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I would ring and ask to speak to your mother's solicitor, they may not be available immediately but I would hope they would get back to you. Be polite to them, all they're doing is representing her interests and acting on the information she has given them. Correct the mistakes on what contact she had and was offered. Explain your current position, whatever that might be. Consider writing a letter afterwards to confirm what was discussed during the conversation. (I would recommend having notes before you call and ticking off things as you raise them).

As far as your position is concerned some points to consider are:

• it's not about grandparents' rights, it's about your daughter's right to have a relationship with the siginificant members of her family.
• it appears that your daughter did have a good relationship with your mother despite your problems with her (well done, that must have been difficult!).
• have a think about whether you could agree to contact if there were ground rules (e.g. not discussing you), and/or a level of supervision. Social services aren't going to offer you several hours of a social worker's time every week for ever so you would need to investigate alternatives. Google for "contact centres" in your area to see what might be available. The solicitor will know about local facilities.

Be prepared to go to mediation/court. It's not as scary as it seems. If you're behaving reasonably and acting in your child's best interests then you can't go wrong. A court can make you pay the other side's costs but it's very unlikely in a family case (unless you behave very badly). A word of warning, (and I disagree with A1980 on this), breaching a Court order is a very bad idea. The Court can make you pay compensation, do unpaid work or even send you to prison in the most serious case. You need to act now to make sure you can comply with any order which is made.

Good luck.

Good luck with speaking to someone else's solicitor .

It doesn't happen.

Is it worth approaching SS and telling them that your mum is making accusations in order to obtain total access. Your mother is manipulating the situation in order to getwhat she wants. i'd also register somewhere that she seems to be poisoning your DD's mind against you and that is why you have restricted contact recently - along with the fact that she has to also spend many hours the day at school since september. You need factual information that gran was picking your daughter up while also telling the soliciter that she had no access.

TBH my understanding from recent stuff i have read, that GP has no legal rights to see their GC at all, so tbh I would chance my phone number, cut off all contact and let school know whats happened.
HTH

OP - please cut this woman out of your life. She is very damaged and will only harm you and your daughter. I don't know about the legal situation but I am sure she has no real rights.

I suspect there is a lot about your childhood that hurts? Maybe some counselling would benefit you?

I am sure you know but for what it is worth do not doubt your instincts for a second. She is that bad and it isn't your fault

My friend didn't get arrested but she would have been if she hadn't handed the child over to the police who took him to the grandparents house because they had been to court and got a residency order whilst she was on holiday.
I guess I don't know all the ins and outs but I do know the child was given straight back to her once se got in front of a judge but the grandparents have a contact order and she has to allow them access for the next 15 years.
So to say GP's don't have rights and you can just cut them out is not true. Hence why you'd surely want to stay out of court in the OP's shoes.

"Under the current legal framework, grandparents have no automatic rights to see their grandchildren. If the parents are denying a grandparent access to their grandchild, there is very little that a grandparent can do, particularly if the parents are refusing to negotiate. In such situations, a grandparent's only course of action would be to apply to the Court for permission to make an application for contact ? known as "leave to apply".

In deciding whether to grant leave to apply, the Court will take into consideration the applicant's connection to the child and the parent's wishes, amongst other things. If successful, the grandparent would then be allowed to make their substantive application for contact which the Court will decide based on the best interests of the child. There is no guarantee that a contact application would succeed despite leave to apply having been granted.

Therefore, under the current system, grandparents are expected to overcome the hurdles of two applications to Court before contact with their grandchild could be granted"

from GPA law pages

Why on earth dud you ever let this tOxic woman be part if yOur daughters life? Cut her off now - she has NO respect for you and your daughter doesn't need a nasty figure like that in her life
People have given legal advice - take it and don't see your sorry excuse for a mother again

Try this next week:

www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/

then definitely cut her out for good.

Can people not read the whole thread?!

OP has stated that her Mum hasn't been looking after DD for 5 yrs, only 18months.

The OP also said that it was her daughter ( ie, the most important person here no? ) who wanted to be picked up by mum, and not be at nanny/gp house all the time.

OP also said "I then offered to let her have my Daughter on a Monday afternoon from 4-7 and on a Tuesday afternoon from 4 until half past 5 (to take my Daughter to her Ballet Class) as a compromise."

This last one is more than fair and reasonable, imho.
The OP's grandparents aren't kicking up a fuss about a slight reduction of contact when the DD goes to school, ( probably because they understand there is obviously a need for change when school starts )

The only one who has acted completely out of order is the OP's mum.
She went totally too far and even if it is for the best intentions, ie, she wants to see her GD more etc, she isn't actually thinking about anyone except herself here.

She doesn't have any rights to, bad mouth you and then demand contact orders etc.
She sounds like a right nasty, abusive piece of work.
No doubt that this act is more about how she can control you than that she wholey wants all the contact with DD.
If she was reasonable, she would of accepted the comprimise ( most would of settled for what was first given tbh ).

You OP are not toxic in this situation, you were nice and forgiving enough to let your DD have a relationship with your mother dispite her not being a good one to you, those who can not see how hard and mature that could be are quite frankly stupid.

It is your mothers fault for ruining this relationship, she should of been grown up and gracious enough to realise she wasn't a good mum and that she was being treated better than she deserved when you let her back in.
Sounds like she has never learnt a lesson, or taken any blame for the situation.