Circumcision but no Circumcision Party

[thefruitwhisperer]

DP is turkish but he and his family were all born in the UK and dont practise Muslim traditions apart from Eid. My DP is the only one who does Ramadan and thats only every couple of years when he can be bothered. They celebrate xmas and easter etc.

Ive agreed to have our month old baby circumcised as thats what DP wants and I agree that there are plus points, but Im an atheist so I would like all religious connotations taken out of the situation. I think thats a fair compromise (esp as its going to be quite hard for me, Im really scared) and I would like it to be a quiet decision between DP and I. His family will know the baby has been cut, why do we need to celebrate it in a party that is more for the sake of getting presents than it is anything else. I dont want the gifts.

DP has admitted that the only reason his family circumcise their babies is for social reasons, everyone has it done, everyone has a party, everyone gets money as gifts. Ive compromised on the actual circumcism, and I really really dont want to have a party. I will feel as though Ive sold my babies foreskin. Add to that, if theres no religious reason for it, why are we even doing it - and the only answer I can see is cultural/social/peer pressure reasons. I just dont see any reason to celebrate this pointless operation (obviously only pointless in this instance, I can understand where it is necessary medically or in religious circumstances) other than to show off that we have conformed and then get some money. Children who have their appendixes out dont have parties. I mean, I could equally argue that we have the baby christened catholic, my family all are and dont go to church.

AIBU to have the operation but draw the line at a party? I think DPs family are all going to be disappointed with me. And his grandparents apparently disowned his uncle for the same thing.

Leoni is entitled to her view but maybe should at least accept that others hold different views. In the case of religious observant Jews circumcision is an important commandment and is spiritually meanigful practice. Whilst I am not religious I do at least respect the views of other people.

Back to the party OP, you don't want one, so don't have one, ask the family politely to respect your need for calm, peace and time alone with DP and son. Explain to them how you feel about the circumcision and how you have made a huge sacrafice and that you don't feel like celebrating. Instead send a card to close family and accept presents and cards in return but no party.

Wow, so a flawed God asked of his servant to severe a penis in order to show commitment.

Someone explain to me who would believe in such a God? Religion has a lot of stupidity to answer for.

I used to wetly suggest that I respect religious views of people but I no longer do when they infringe upon human rights and/or decency.

Severing a child's penis, putting holes in their ears, covering a child's head like there's something to be embarrassed about, making a child practice chapter and verse of religious scripture, whatever it is it is horrible and has no place in 2010.

Indeed it has a lot to answer. Jews believe that g-d left creation partly unfinished so that man could make an agreement with g-d to continue the work of creation.

Observant Jews often leave one part of their home undecorated and unfinished to remind them of this pact with g-d.

Why did g-d create man in his own image, Jews do not believe this. G-d is G-d and man is a work in progress This is why the muslim arguement in favour of circumcision is flawed.

Religion is no good reason for anything quite frankly! But that's another debate.

I really don't understand why this is legal! If I were to chop off my dhs forskin I'd do time - it just makes no sense!

Nogreatexpectations what are you basing your opinion on? Islam is is an Abrahamic faith too hence the tradition of circumcision

There are some differences in opionon about the scholars but the majority view is that men who were born with a foreskin and were not circumcised cannot perform hajj a pillar of islam. Some scholars would go further and say you couldnt pray as you are not ritually clean but this is not as widespread belief.

My son was circumcised using the plastibell technique, it was not pain free. He had an injection of anaesthetic which hurt. The whole operation caused him less distress than his heel prick test or his first set of jabs. But dd was totally unbothered by the heel prick test so I am unsure of how accurate an indicator that would be.

I am not sure if I would circumcise in the situation of the OP tbh.

I agree Riven which is why my children will have to convert if they wish to be practicing Jews. In jewish law a person who decides freely to be a jew should be held in the highest esteem. I haven't had my sons circumcised. If they choose to that's fine but when they are older they will know and understand the commitment and the religious reasons for doing so.

Thats the hypocricy of circumcision, a baby can not make a commitment religious or otherwise, which is why it is meaningless.

I can't understand how anyone can 'respect' anything that condones child abuse in such a barbaric way! I'm truely shocked that in this day and age anyone could be fooled into believing such tripe, and no I don't respect that some people think something different to me, not when what they think involves The mutilation of innocent babies and children. You have to ask if they are prepared to cut off part of their sons genitalia, as a public event, what the hell do they do in private! Poor poor children :(

Littleducks, christianity too is an Abrahamic faith but there is no tradition of circumcision. The prophet wasn't circumcised.

expat - ain't Israelis great?

nogreatexpectations - first, as a separate personal issue, your view on Jewish converts - does that extend to all converts or Orthodox only? Are you Orthodox? As for circumcision, well done for not giving into religious pressure and leaving it to your sons to decide for themselves.

Although, aren't your sons Jewish, circumcised or not? AFAIK the Reform movement, while still encouraging circumcision , doesn't consider it essential to be a practising Jew.

I agree christianity is an abrahamic faith but i have no idea why christians eat pork or dont circumcise

Muslims place a great deal of importance on Abraham/Ibrahim as a prophet, the festival of Eid-ul Adha celebrates his willingness to sacrifice his son for God

The tradition of circumcision goes back to that time with the descendants of Ibrahims son Ishmael following that tradition

But I really would like to know what the basis of your opinion is, why would you think that only Jewish people would circumcise and nobody else would?

You surely just have to watch the videos on youtube to see this is so wrong. And to read stories on this thread such as a baby going into a catatonic state.

I did once question the way in which it I judge practices like this of other cultures - my son used to have a phobia of having his hair washed and would scream terribly - would someone from a culture where hair is not ashed (if such a thing exists?) condone me? I was trying to wash it for hygiene just as some argue they circumcise for hygiene. Well, course it is not the same - hair and genitalia have a very different level of sensation, but thinking this did make me aware of the way cultural norms can become so ingrained that is someone suggest we didn't do it for the sake of the child (wash his hair...), we would seriously question them because it is the normal thing to do.

TheFeministParent - I separate mothers 'condoning' FGM and fathers condoning circumcision, since the mothers allowing (or even encouraging) their daughters to be mutilated are usually poorly-educated and horribly oppressed themselves.

Fully educated, wealthy and powerful men still have their sons circumcised. I don't think any mother in the same position would inflict FGM on her daughter.

How about a Mumsnet campaign to ban circumcision on non medical grounds??

Or are we all a bit scared of the religious aspect?

I dont think that is something that MNHQ would want to assosciate with at all tbh, you could start a topic in site stuff and suggest it or email them but i really dont think that kind of campaign would reflect mumsnets values

Good call Alouise, I'm with you on that.

I too am atheist and don't really have any view on any religions.

I haven't read the full thread, couldn't get past the first page without having to say that i could not/would not ever do anything so pointlessly cruel and horrible to my baby boy. certainly not half heartedly like OP seems to be intent on doing.

sorry if i've offended.

I wouldn't worry about offending anyone on the thread, there doesn't seem to be much support for such a pointless barbaric act.

My fathers Jewish but non religious but would have had the children circumcised if it were his choice to make. My mother is not Jewish so neither am I. Therefore I would have to convert. Thought long and hard about this because my parents have left the choice with me. Likewise the choice will be left for my children, although we have all been learning and reading together and DS1 is very keen. So we shall see. No desire to be orthodox and they don't generally welcome converts.

In terms of circumcision it should be for individuals to decide not for ambivelant parents to happlessly just undertake on their behalf.

Apparently in the early 20th century the upper classes and upper middle classes favoured circumcision because so many young boys were sent away to boarding schools.