To not give my children the swine flu vaccine?

[wintersnow]

I decided not to last year as I wanted to wait and see how safe it was but am reconsidering this year after several people have died. Did you give it to your children and what were your reasons to give/not give it?

Laneigejaune - but what about the vulnerable kids who are at particular risk of vaccine damage? Some children are more at risk than others. The government doesn't take this into account at all - we simply have 'one size fits all' vaccination programs. Hence the problem. The whole picture is not considered. Until it is I'm not going to to feel that I can put my trust in these programs for my children.

I do not agree with the idea that any 'collateral damage' is acceptable. If you're a health official you'll be more concerned with disease control than possible adverse reactions to vaccines.

Surely nobody believes seriously that governments are wholly altruistic in how they make policies? They don't consider the individual. So I don't trust them.

And my mistrust is borne of inconsistencies and a total failure to accept responsibility when things go wrong -- but instead to cover it up and blame anything else they possibly could.

Most doctors will accept that a child can be damaged by, for example - a live virus, but a vaccination? Why is that?? How does that make sense?

So, we have great sanitation here, yet we still get deaths from measles, meningitis, tb.

And yes, I don't think vaccination is the answer for those who have bad reactions to them or have health reasons not to.

But what i don't understand is the mindset that don't get vaccinated on the basis that everyone else does so I don't need to.

Or those who think the harm to animals is greater than the risk to their children.

I know, I'm being controversial. But I seriously don't get it.

'But what i don't understand is the mindset that don't get vaccinated on the basis that everyone else does so I don't need to.'

I really don't think anyone has that view. I certainly don't.

I know my children could catch the diseases and my decision won't change until I can see we have safer policies and drug companies are not the driving force behind what gets pushed the most.

somebody further up the thread said they didn't agree with animal testing for vaccines and that she relied on the fact that everyone else was vaccinated so she didn't need to vaccinate her dcs.

Well, I can't answer for that poster.....

Actually, I did do the research, that's why they are vaccinated. I do not believe there are any definitive answers out there, and I know that scientific opinion changes as we get more information, but I still trust the science more than value judgements. Still think swine flu is different though.

Caboodle - I don't make my decisions based upon 'value judgments'

Do you not find it a concern that here in the UK, mercury was used in baby vaccines for years after the WHO said it should be discontinued and years after the US stopped using it in theirs?

Just to be clear, I don't think people who do vaccinate have not researched - it's not fair to suggest that. But we tend to arrive at different conclusions based upon our particular life experiences.

Yes, I think a lot of people assume the authorities would never do anything to hurt our kids, etc.

It's not that I think they are all evil and there's some huge conspiracy. But when profit making organisations become entangled with health policies there is an unavoidable conflict of interest.

Leonie - I'm not picking on you but I'm interested in your view. So would you be happy to send your child to a school where no child had been vaccinated against anything?

I know I wouldn't. But it's probably, as electra said, due to our individual life experiences.

I have worked in hospitals where I've seen people die of tb and meningitis and I guess that colours my judgement.

And if you've seen people with adverse reactions to vaccinations I guess that influences your view.

Howto that's a good point. I wonder if the nonimmunisers would be as confident in their decision if herd immunity didn't exist: I.e. If there was a very real danger that, if kids weren't immunized, they might get ill.

Electra: I totally agree that vaccinations aren't for everyone. There are a very small minority of children for whom vaccinations are potentially more of a risk than the illness they're given to prevent. These kids are usually (ok maybe not always) identified by
consultants etc. Eg, my DD nearly didn't get her MMR booster: she had a very nasty, prolonged febrile convulsion when she had chickenpox earlier this year, and was being investigated for epilepsy as a result. The jab was delayed while they did EEGs etc on
the advice of her consultant and the paediatric neurologist. She was given the jab when they gave her the all clear. Riven's DD is classic example of a child for whom immunizations are more of a risk than the possibility of catching the illness they aim to present. I can also see why people with family history of complications steer clear of them.

My concern is for those with perfectly healthy DC who decide not to have them immunized. Those kids who shouldn't be immunized, eg Riven's DD, really need the benefit of herd immunity. That's why I think that everyone who can be immunized should be immunized, to maintain herd immunity and protect the kids who can't have the jabs.

I recognize that it's a really difficult issue though, and that people agonize over it. I do myself, and do as much research as I can. I have always found that the evidence favors immunization. That said, I hate getting them done and I will be shitting myself when DD2 gets her MMR next year, given that it gave her big sister a febrile convulsion

Yes I guess that's something else I'm thinking about. Does nobody feel any responsibility in a moral way to anyone else. If your dc is perfectly healthy and yes, they may well get through swine flu ok, do you ( in general, an anybody you ) not feel any responsibility for possibly passing it on to someone who is immuno suppressed/can't have vaccine for health reasons.

Most of these children are not identified - that's the problem. There is certainly no routine checking procedure happening - unless I'm mistaken.

My decision would be the same - herd immunity is not a factor in my decision. I do what I can live with, that's all.

The responsibility I have is primarily to keep my children safe. I would never put someone else's welfare above my children's - and I defy any of you to say otherwise. Most people vaccinate because they assume their child will not be adversely affected. If they knew in advance they would have a bad reaction they wouldn't do it. I don't have enough trust to make that assumption happily. It boils down to that.

My responsibility to the community is shown in that I'd never take any of my kids anywhere if they had chicken pox for example.

Leonie, I disagree with your view but can see why you take it. We all want what's best for our own DC. For me the benefits of immunising outweigh the risks. Your way of looking at it does seem a wee bit selfish to me but I respect you for having the guts to stick to your position. I also don't know the full background to you reaching that view so fair enough.

More generally, as far as the big pharma argument is concerned, do we really think that the NHS would be spending precious millions on the immunisation programme if The vaccinations weren't on balance saving lives? I can't see why they would continue to do it if the science was bad.

To Leonie again, out of interest and purely from a philosophical perspective, what would you do if one of your own DC had a condition which meant that they might suffer serious complications
from catching something for which a vaccine was available? Would you have your other DC immunized to protect the one who was at risk? Think this is a really interesting point. What's your view?

My ex-H saw, daily how pharma companies would come to the hospital he worked in and take the director out for meals and were very persuasive in selling their products. Vaccination is seen as beyond reproach so there's never enough questioning about what's used, safety of certain batches, recording of information, and so on.....