to be concerned about the personal hygiene of my friend and her baby?

[taintedsnow]

Background is that I've known this friend for about 10 years, but we have become closer friends in the past 18 months. She is a lovely person, sweethearted, kind and very loyal.

Problem is, she has appauling personal hygiene. It is bad enough that I am beginning to not want her in my house. I feel terrible about even feeling that way because she's such a nice person and I consider her a close friend, but the smell is unbearable. I find myself holding my breath if she walks past me. It is a combination of body odour and dirt. I don't believe she washes her clothes very often if at all tbh.

The same thing seems to be happening with her DS. He is a baby and she claims to be bathing him nightly but he always has a certain scent to him and it isn't nice. It's not a pooey smell, it's a definite unwashed smell. I can't work out whether it's coming from his clothes (which never look clean) or from being held by his mum IYSWIM.

Their home is quite dirty as well. I don't think it gets cleaned and smells very bad also. I limit the amount of time I spend in there and do not take DN with me when I go. There is cat poo on the floor and dirty nappies strewn everywhere, for example.

What can I do? I feel awful to be even talking about this, but the smell my friend brings in with her when she comes to my house is getting quite unbearable. My DN is not a huggy child with other people, so it's not such an issue with him, but I know she'll want to hold my baby and she's so lovely and know she'll make a great 'aunt' if not for these issues.

How do I handle this? I can't bear the idea of hurting her feelings by telling her how bad she smells, but for her sake as much as anyone else's, it's not in my nature to let things deteriorate further.

TBH when someone gives me smellies at christmas I never think "aha I obviously stink", I just think "oh look more smellies". SWIM?

There is no way I could go to SS about someone who is supposed to be a friend, behind their back - for 'good reason' or not, without trying to get them to ask SS for help themselves. If I had a problem like your friend I could forgive you for being blunt with me, but I would never forgive you for going to SS and not talking to me first.

No - it's beyond Christmas Smellies - you need to have a proper talk to her.

absolutely agree with CI

The Christmas present might work if it makes her look at herself and realise that she doesn't smell very nice. But that's unlikely to happen if she's not bothered about leaving cat poo on the floor etc. Do you think she is self concious about this, or does she just not notice?

My neighbour who had this problem simply did not know how to keep his flat clean - he just didn't do any cleaning and by the time it was bad enough to bother him the task of cleaning was so overwhelming that he couldn't even get started on it. Now he risks eviction if he lets the rubbish build up again, and ss come to visit every week, and he seems to be coping better.

I think CI has it.

Also wanted to say that my neighbour is actually glad that he was reported to the housing association & social services, as he knew he had a problem and knew he needed help to deal with it.

That said, I agree totally with other posters about trying to have a proper talk first, and only involve outside help if talking doesn't get you anywhere.

I think you do need to have an honest chat. It's not easy, but as other posters have mentioned, this level of not-caring is likely indicative of other problems. Prepare to be supportive and maybe help her realise a framework to slowly come forward, possibly helping her realise if she needs help/counselling. You're a good person to care for her.

Okay, so have a chat with her it is.

Do I beat around the bush or come right out with it harshly?

I absolutely will not go straight to SS, I will try talking to her first to see if I can effect some change.

But any further advice on how to have that conversation would be gratefully received.

I would start off saying how much you like her as a friend and maybe something about how when you care for someone you sometimes have to tell them things that are difficult for them to hear.

Then after that get straight to the point - maybe focus on the hygiene in the home side of it rather than her own personal hygiene? Then you can bring in the fact that the dirt could be harmful to her DS, and it won't sound so much like personal criticsm.

writing a script beforehand might help, so that you know what you are going to say

something like:

This place is filthy and I'm concerned that the baby might pick up a really horrid disease from the cat poo and dirty nappies lying around. Will you let me help you to get the flat straight - I can take some washing and here are some cleaning products I have picked up [proffer basket of stuff, gloves, bin bags, bleach etc]. Now when can we get started?

Also you could offer to accompany her to the HV/GP if she indicates that she might be depressed

The NSPCC might be able to point out things to do that we've overlooked

I tend to be a straight out person. I would broach it from the I am concerned about you angle. This leaves it open to a lot of possible avenues and you truly are concerned about her. Other posters may have more delicate way to do this and better suggestions. My only word of caution is if she does need a lot of help and support, are you ready to be that person?

yes it's quite possible it's a laundry issue. I know I had to learn for myself how frequently items needed to be washed (my mother had me doing my own laundry from when I was 8 or so, but beyond telling me how the machine worked, I was on my own).

I've got a brother-in-law who is similar, he washes regularly but doesn't do laundry as often as he should. So despite the fact that HE is clean, his shirt (or, in particular, his socks!) still smells.

I have no pointers on how to approach the subject, but I hope you're successful. You sound like a good friend.

Yes, be as frank as you can, explain that you are finding it awkward but you care about her and her DS and value her friendship (which it sounds like you really do)

I actually agree with brabbin. It's time to take a deep breath (pardon the pun!) and say "Look I am so sorry to bring this up but I've been really worried about you."

As an aside I am often shocked when I go into other people's houses - some of who have children - to see the state of bathrooms, kitchens, towels etc. I suppose I can see how some people would slip into a 'what's the point' mode. It does take motivation to give the house a clean when you know it's only going to end up the same!

Another way to go about it would be to discuss your household routine. Say you struggle to keep on top of everything sometimes and ask how she goes about things. An in to the difficult topic perhaps?

I think if it were me being told I would want to be told straight out, but very gently, and I would want time to think about it rather than feel railroaded into getting up then and there and washing.
But what might help me is some kind of plan, or structure, which I could do with some help a little time after I'd come to terms with being stinky (day or so).
That would be my own personal hygiene - nappies and cat poo need immediate attention obv but a cleaning schedule/rota can be good for someone who isn't used to the idea.
Just my own feeling.

x-post with cupcake

Agree about needing time to think too. I've had to talk to someone in this situation, and after the chat they did need some time to reflect before they could see that it was actually something that needed sorting out.

After that I kept being there now and again, tried not to be pushy but made it clear that I wouldn't leave her to it, and would help with motivation and actually doing it. It didn't come to social services in the end, and things are on track again, a real relief.

A slight cop out would be to start from scratch and not mention the history of it. "Blimey, what's gone on here? The house is a tip! Lets get this sorted" and then help her with the cleaning and laundry. Once you're done, can you offer to look after her DS for half an hour for her to have a bath?

You've obviously got too many commitments to do this all the time but if you can spare an afternoon, it might help.

Good idea Actuallawyer.

I would say a lot depends on your judgement of how she is able to pick up conversation points and relate them back to her.

Could you start a conversation about how many loads of washing you have done this week so far, how tricky it is to dry it all in winter? The say as you have to wash your baby vests, underwear, t-shirts every time they have been worn, at least you can dry them on radiators etc. Ask her what she does, how does she keep on top of it all? Talk about how you run the hoover round every day and clean the bathroom or whatever etc.

It could just be that she has never really learned what is normal? Do you know much about her upbringing?

If you feel talking about your routine will be too subtle, you might have to be more direct.

'I am telling you this because you are my friend and I really like you. You are kind and loyal. I would want you to be honest with me if it was the other way round. I understand you may feel hurt or upset, but I want to help in any way I can. Your house is not clean enough, you need to wash your clothes more often and take a shower and wash your hair every day. You need to wear clean clothes. The baby needs clean clothes every day. You need to wash the baby every day. You need to re-home the cat if you can't clean up after it properly. Let me help you. Let's get your house up together, let's tackle the laundry. How can I help you? What do you need from me?'

The problem with the subtle "how do you keep on top of it all?" is that it's dishonest. She clearly doesn't keep on top of it all and then you're stuck with having to back track if the hinting doesn't work.

LeChatRouge's second option sounds good.

I think if she is an intelligent woman, she might feel patronised by the indirect route. I'd feel quite 'nannied' and undermined if someone started hinting things at me like that.

I think LeChat's second approach is the best, too. Talking about how hard you have found it to say this might be a good way to start:

'Look, I have this thing I need to say to you and I've been worrying for ages about how to say it. I'm really scared you'll be angry, and I hope not because I don't want to lose you as a friend -- you mean so much to me. But, I am concerned that the hygiene in your house is bad for your baby...'

Could you say that, do you think, OP?