to be properly offended by this numpty?

[maighdlin]

i love the BBC's have your say section. interesting read and you do get some clever people on it. today they were talking about "sexual" items aimed at children, t shirts that say "porn star" etc. one person said this

This does need to be addressed. Kids should be kids. I dispise seeing kids forced to give up fun for 'education' (some kids dont have a clue about fun) and I dispise seeing kids (usually young girls) wanting to look and act like tarts.

In my family I have cousins who were barely up to my knee in height but dance like lapdancers because of the pop singers at the time. Luckily their parents make them dress appropreately but I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases. Being taught the difference between a prostitute/lapdancer/stripper and normal behaviour would make all the difference.

I completely agree with what they are saying except for the " I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases" WTF????? I am very rarely offended but how bloody dare they say that a girl having low self esteem means she gets raped??? I hate this attitude that some people "deserve" or "ask for it" when it comes to rape. Rape is rape no matter what you are wearing or whatever. Its a stupid misogynistic way to think that only "good" girls get raped.

Im not sure im even making sense here but am so effing angry at this ignorance AIBU to think that some uninformed ignorant dickhead wrote this?

Sorry, should read "That wasn't what TheFeministParent suggested".

Well actually, a right-thinking person in those circumstances could call him a rapist, if his wife didn't want him to penetrate her.

Women don't lose the right to own their own bodies because they are married - although up until 20 years ago, legally, they did.

Thanks herbeatitude. It was a long time ago now, I was young, niave and saving myself for the right man. One night and it was gone, but I have moved on, have my lovely DS now. I do think though talking to a stranger may help, your message and this thread has got me in tears now.

mumbar, loads of calls to rape crisis, are from women needing to talk about what happened to them ten or twenty years ago.

Sometimes it takes a long time to face up to something that happened and to be ready to talk about it. Rape Crisis are used to that, please don't feel you can't talk to them because it was too long ago.

I'm so sorry if anything I've said has upset you and I hope you get any help you might need.

Of course, HerBeatitude, I know that, I didn't say otherwise. The circumstances were that she consented.

On "taking sensible precautions":

All people, men, women, the elderly, whoever, should be aware that certain things might not be advisable. Things like getting so pissed you can't walk, wandering around a park in the middle of the night, flashing a large wodge of cash around in a pub and then leaving by yourself, leaving your car unlocked with the engine running and going into your house, etc etc etc. Common sense things. Everyone in society is at risk of assault, theft, being mugged etc, and everyone should understand about what they can do to minimise risk.

However if people do not follow the "rules" and something happens, it is the fault of the person who breaks the law.

On rape:

Most rapes are carried out by people known to the victim. Most rapes are not carried out when people are drunk. Women do not go around reporting people for rape because they have ill advised sex and regret it. Most women do not report rape because they know it is usually a waste of time. Women who get raped are the victim of a rapist. Because there is no way of telling who is a rapist and who is not, it is fairly pointless following all the "rules" as however hard you follow them, if you end up with a rapist and he sees his chance, you're still going to get raped.

If young women followed the "rules" to the letter, they would basically not be able to do anything. And they would still be raped. The "rules" are there simply so that when women get raped, people can find something that she did "wrong", and blame her for it. And think "well I'd never do that, so I'll be fine".

I have also spent an awful lot of time in all sorts of altered states with all sorts of people. I have wandered around London by myself as a teenager, all the time. No problem. When I was attacked, it was by someone I knew well and trusted, everyone was sober, it was lunchtime. What "rule" did I get wrong? Never be alone with any male you know including family? Silly.

The idea that women must restrict the freedom in this way is nonsense.

Teach everyone about common sense, fine. Don't single women and girls out. And don't look for reasons to blame them when they are raped.

Sincere apologies to mumbar - I do not intend at all to minimize what happned to you.

BUT - everyone - how have we ended up talking about a minority of atypical rapes? Can we get this thread back on track?

Excellent post, ISNT.

I have got off with men when drunk and wandered around/home with them late at night, I've lost all my friends in a club, I've walked through cities in the small hours drunk and alone, I've slept in a house full of male strangers, I've lived with young men and got drunk with them and fallen asleep in their rooms, I have flirted and "come on to" men when horrendously drunk. I have probably broken all the rules, and I have not had an especially wild life, and so far I have not been raped. To have followed the rules would have limited my life in the sense that I wouldn't have been able to do the kind of work I've done, or move to the cities I've lived in, or enjoy the times I have enjoyed, because I would have to be travelling, chaperoned, in daylight hours only, without a particle of alcohol passing my lips.

I am fully aware that as a woman I am at risk of being raped by some bastard rapist who thinks he can get away with it, and is probably right. Sorry this has probably already been said, but I want to reiterate that rapists don't have "R" branded on their foreheads, and the fact that no-one has raped me is down the the fact that the men I have lived with, had relationships with, partied with and worked with are not rapists. They know that you don't say "whoopeedoo" and take a paralytically drunk girl home when she tries to chat you up. They know that falling asleep on a male friend's bed is not an invitation to rape. They know that women and girls usually make it known when they are interested in sex with you.

It's not difficult to avoid being a rapist. Most men manage it just fine, but I agree they were all taught it at some point - even if only the basics of respect for the bodies of others that we all learn as children.

But while there are whiny apologists willing to reach for the smelling salts at the idea of men and boys being taught how not to rape, then nothing will change.

Oh and OP of course YANBU.

self-esteem would be helpful for women/girls to have for many many reasons, but not this. Because self-esteem can only effect the woman herself, and by it's very nature rape is something that is done against her will. It doesn't matter how confident or otherwise she is, it's not about her behaviour. It's about the rapist's.

bravo ISNT and elephants - totally agree with you both

mumbar - thanks for sharing - it is people like you sharing awful experiences which spurs me on to be involved fighting for women's rights and spending my time trying to bust rape myths. Do seek support to talk it through in RL.

In terms of the thread being "on track" re the OP.

Well the OP was AIBU to think WTF re people saying " I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases".

OP - YANBU.

I do not think we are too off track on this thread because we have had MNers basically saying they kept themselves safe/wouldn't put their daughters at risk/have more self esteem than to get steaming drunk and in tricky situations etc etc.

I do not think we are too off track on this thread because we have had MNers basically saying they kept themselves safe/wouldn't put their daughters at risk/have more self esteem than to get steaming drunk and in tricky situations etc etc - i.e. echoing the comment OP took exception to you.

Therefore a lot of this thread has involved - WTF ????

Elephants sums it up.

tab, I admit I said that mostly as I am so fed up with people who think or pretend that rape is something that happens only or mostly to drunk women in the 'wrong' area.

I haven't read the whole thread but can I just ask the OP...please if you start threads discussing rape can you mention it in the title? Just so people can choose whether to click on it or not? When this came up in 'most active' it sounded like a very light-hearted thread, which it obviously isn't.

Thanks. And hope that wasn't an annoying request.

'Because the man has had sex with someone too drunk to give valid consent'

Drunken consent is still consent.There have been cases on this

Yes, I know pantomimecow

That was in response to a hypothetical situation.

tabouleh - 'I do not think we are too off track on this thread because we have had MNers basically saying they kept themselves safe/wouldn't put their daughters at risk/have more self esteem than to get steaming drunk and in tricky situations etc etc - i.e. echoing the comment OP took exception to you.

Therefore a lot of this thread has involved - WTF ????'

I haven't read any posters stating that, I think you have been quite patronising and reading too much into some comments which came about directly in line to what the OP was asking in her opening post about what some guy meant about self esteem and how it might be meant in connection to some rapes situations, it was only a discussion. I doubt anyone posting thinks that 'rape' only applies to the way it's been talked about here as regards being drunk where it puts women in a more vulnerable situation be it from rape or any other assault.

I really doubt anyone disagrees with with ISNT and Elephants on rape in general as they pretty much covered it.

begonyabampot and mj very glad to hear that you seem to agree with ISNT and elephant's posts.

It seems to me that they posted such strong personal testamonials as a counterpoint to contrary opinions up thread.

Not sure why I am being singled out as being "patronising" apart from the fact that I took direct issue with what some posters were saying.

If you truely agree with what ISNT and elephants say then I would think that you must surely now agree with my earlier post that a focus by the police on altering women's behaviour is wrong and that the focus should be on catching criminals and protecting women.

Tabloueh - of course the focus on capturing criminals should be the main focus but I don't agree with what you said about why should the police tell women and children to be careful and not walk alone if possible in an area where a possible sexual predator had been seen several times - it is the polices duty to warn the public and common sense for us to heed these warnings when there is a true reported danger - I think it was to this that NOT made that admittedly cack handed comment about 'making a point at the expense of your daughters' or something.

SGM - the 'police warnings' being discussed are in relation to a flasher in Tabloueh's area who is targeting schoolchildren in a certain area. She thinks the police are wrong to warn the public that this man is operation there - that they should just be telling the women and children to go about their business as usual. I just think that's crazy if there is a known threat. I'd be furious if the police didn't warn our community of this kind of thing.