to be properly offended by this numpty?

[maighdlin]

i love the BBC's have your say section. interesting read and you do get some clever people on it. today they were talking about "sexual" items aimed at children, t shirts that say "porn star" etc. one person said this

This does need to be addressed. Kids should be kids. I dispise seeing kids forced to give up fun for 'education' (some kids dont have a clue about fun) and I dispise seeing kids (usually young girls) wanting to look and act like tarts.

In my family I have cousins who were barely up to my knee in height but dance like lapdancers because of the pop singers at the time. Luckily their parents make them dress appropreately but I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases. Being taught the difference between a prostitute/lapdancer/stripper and normal behaviour would make all the difference.

I completely agree with what they are saying except for the " I think if young kids were taught self respect there would be less rape cases" WTF????? I am very rarely offended but how bloody dare they say that a girl having low self esteem means she gets raped??? I hate this attitude that some people "deserve" or "ask for it" when it comes to rape. Rape is rape no matter what you are wearing or whatever. Its a stupid misogynistic way to think that only "good" girls get raped.

Im not sure im even making sense here but am so effing angry at this ignorance AIBU to think that some uninformed ignorant dickhead wrote this?

[WhereYouLeftIt]

hairyfairylights, I read it as a more generalised objection to the early sexualisation of children, copying the (lap)dancing of popstars etc. The language is a bit Daily Mail vague, but I think at base they're just talking about the normalisation of sexualised behaviour/low self-esteem putting them in danger of being groomed by predatory types.

Phrase it differently, it would come across better perhaps? Dunno, just the way I read it - I have been known to give the benefit of the doubt!

[pantomimecow]

'I am very rarely offended but how bloody dare they say that a girl having low self esteem means she gets raped??? I hate this attitude that some people "deserve" or "ask for it" when it comes to rape.'

But sexual predators ARE more likely to push themselves on a person with low self esteem.That's not the woman's fault and she is by no means 'asking for it'


The OP contradicts itself I see it as empowering that women and girls are able to wear what they want.You are curtailing that freedom by chastising them for 'wanting to look like tarts'

[LoudRowdyDuck]

maig

No, girls (even drunk girls), do not 'make themselves vulnerable'. The man who rapes a drunk woman is responsible; it is not her fault.

[TattytinsellooksDevine]

Did the poster clarify what type of rape he meant? Because if he meant statutory rape where the girl was consenting with a boy of a few too many years older he might have a point in that if they had more self respect they wouldn't be pursuing sexual relationships that young but be out playing hopscotch or whatever

"You can fuck right off as well. Equating rape with 'pursuing sexual relationships'!!!"

Fuck off with your types of rape. And when you get to fuck you can fuck off some more.

__

Fine - but if I could clarify a few points.

They are not "my types of rape". They are the classifications of rape that exist in the legal system. Nothing to do with me, thanks.

Statutory rape differs from forcible rape in that overt force or threat need not be present. The term statutory rape generally refers to sex between an adult and a sexually mature minor past the age of puberty. Sexual relations with a prepubescent child, generically called "child molestation," is typically treated as a more serious crime.

Statutory rape, spousal rape, date rape, gang rape differ in the way they come about - the sequence of events leading up to the crime are typically very different.

Its still rape, and its still a crime, but bearing in mind the comment quoted in the OP is talking about how rape comes about it is not unreasonable to ponder what classification of rape he may be referring to and whether this puts his comment in a different context.

At no point did I "equate" rape with pursuing a sexual relationship. But there are 13 and 14 year olds who do pursue sexual relationships with older men. No, not all cases of statutory rape, but some. And if an older man engages in this then he is guilty of statutory rape. But it should be acknowledged that this does happen and in these cases it might be relevant to ponder whether these girls have issues of self esteem.

Its probably not what the OP's quote was talking about, but it occured to me he might be.

[whiteflame]

well, to be fair... the poster didn't say that it was the victim's fault. just that, in his/her opinion, a person would be less likely to be raped if they had higher self esteem.

Rape is always the fault of the rapist, once it has occurred. But, beforehand certain things can be done to help prevent it. This is not apportioning blame to the victim.

[LoudRowdyDuck]

But no woman is raped purely because she is drunk, white. She's raped because there is a rapist there. Saying women should be taught not to get drunk implies this is something that is her reponsibility.

[whiteflame]

was that aimed at me loudrowdyduck? i never said anything about being drunk

i think it is very important to separate the issues of blame and prevention.

we do potential victims of crimes a disservice if we never discuss prevention strategies because it is labelled as 'blaming the victim'.

[HecTheHallsWithBoughsOfHolly]

Ah, so how a woman / girl dresses is the reason she is raped?

Blame still on the woman I see.

It's not the fault of the man who raped her, no, he was driven temporarily insane by a short skirt and is in no way responsible for his actions.

I fucking HATE this shit.

A man chooses where to put his dick. He is always responsible.

A short skirt or lots of make up, or high heels or walking down the high street stark bloody naked does not mean a man is the victim of your overwhelming sexiness and compelled against his will to rape you.

I am so SICK of hearing variations on the 'man can't help it, women are just too tempting, they should cover up' theme.

[gorionine]

"I am very rarely offended but how bloody dare they say that a girl having low self esteem means she gets raped???"

I have unserstood it in a different way (but still wrong so Y still NBU) I thought he meant that if girls had more self respect in a sense of "if they dresses in less trashy" clothes there would be less rape. I did not see a link between self respect and low self esteem in that context at all.Maybe I really got it wrong.

[HecTheHallsWithBoughsOfHolly]

No, I think that's what he was saying.

That how a female chooses to dress is the reason she gets raped. If women dressed more 'decently' then men would not be compelled to rape them.

Now, I would not leave my front door wide open when I went out, or leave my car unlocked with my purse on the seat, or walk down the street with a bag full of cash without being aware that that may be putting me at risk.

But I would never think that if you did those things, you were compelling someone to steal from you, that it was your fault that they did because the sight of your possessions drove all reason and decency from their minds. I'd never say that having a big tv was wrong because if someone saw it they might be compelled to break in and steal it.

But that is what the report is saying. You are displaying something so desirable that you are responsible for anything that someone seeing it may do.

[Morloth]

It amazes me that so many people just don't seem able to grasp ALL of the fault for EVERY rape lies with the rapist.

I just don't understand what is so difficult about that concept?

[mumbar]

YANBU OP. I never dressed in that way, although had low self esteem was naive. I do think though that sometimes if the victim fights harder it may not go as far. I know I tried to stop it, (someone I knew, both drunk), but because it wasn't a 'violent' crime so much I do wonder if I'd shouted. punched him etc it would ever have gotten that far.

I do honestly believe rape is the rapests fault but also agree with the poster who said the categories and circumctances are all different.

[RunawayChristmasTree]

YA bloody well NBU.

What a stupid thing to say

[cumbria81]

I am shocked you think "have your say" is full of clever people.

I find it's full of backward, bigotted homophobes, myself.

[whiteflame]

i don't think anyone here is struggling with the concept morloth... i think possibly we are arguing the same point from different angles.

for example, if i had a teenage daughter who went walking in a park alone at 2 am and got raped, i would not say/think 'well you shouldn't have been walking there' - the blame lies entirely with the rapist. on the other hand, before the rape, i would have advised my daughter on the dangers of walking through a park on her own in the dark.

this applies to the person quoted in the op. they were not saying to a particular rape victim 'what did you expect with low self esteem' instead, the implication was that low self esteem may be a risk factor for rape. recognition of this may lead to fewer rapes (or raised self esteem), and i fail to see the negative.

[LoudRowdyDuck]

Sorry white, I misread.

[Goldenbear]

YANBU. It is absurd to suggest that the dress sense and self esteem of a girl/woman would somehow help in preventing rapes! A rapist will rape someone regardless of the victim's fashion choices and mental state. It is their mental state that is entirely the concern, when they do not stop themselves from commiting such an act of violation! In my very personal experience I did not expect a professional work colleague, who was recently married to force himself on me. Admittedly I was at the work's Christmas Party so I was dressed for a party- maybe that's why caused it all??

It is attitudes like the one expressed in the OP's extract and to some extent reinforced on this thread that made me go almost insane with thoughts of how I could have prevented what happened - what I was wearing, how much I was drinking, how I related to him in a work context. However, now I believe absolutely nothing, he was the criminal not me and that's what it comes down to.

[notmyproblem]

Here's how I DIDN'T get raped:
-- I was streetproofed at a young age by my parents not to go with strangers
-- later I was taught to think critically about situations and consequences and act accordingly to prevent bad things from happening to me
-- I learned early to trust my instincts and not second-guess myself if I felt something was "wrong", but just to get myself out of there instead
-- when I found myself in a situation that was becoming dangerous, I reacted quickly and aggressively enough to get away.
-- I was lucky.

Sure if I'd done none of those things and still been raped, the fault would lie completely with the rapist. But by making an effort not to walk around like a naive idiot I've done my part to prevent this horrible crime from happening to me.

Why are we sending girls the message that "you should be able to do anything you want and not fear rape" when we should be telling them, "be smart, trust your instincts, get out of there if you sense trouble".

Substitute "mugging" for rape and the same applies.

Some of you posters really live in a blinkered land if you believe that how things should be equates to how things are. I fear for your daughters if this is the kind of stuff you're teaching them. Open your eyes for God's sake.

[LoudRowdyDuck]

Likening people who get raped to 'naive idiots' is unbelievably offensive. I think you need to apologise.

[notmyproblem]

Thanks for misreading LRD. I did not liken them to that.

It's simple: the world is made up of predators and prey. The name of the game is to make yourself a less easy target so that the predators will go prey on someone weaker.

Sad but true.

[LoudRowdyDuck]

Er ... yes, you did! You said:

'by making an effort not to walk around like a naive idiot I've done my part to prevent this horrible crime from happening to me.'

How is that not likening people who get raped to 'naive idiots'?

Also, referring to avoiding rape as a 'game' isn't doing you any favours.

[HecTheHallsWithBoughsOfHolly]

Yes, you have to protect yourself from crime (see my post above re theft) but the op quoted something that appeared to be placing blame on the victim. Making the victim the reason the rapist rapes. That is 100% wrong.