to be proud to be British over the World Cup?

[Appletrees]

We are fantastic. We didn't lie, we didn't cheat, we didn't backstab. It was a great bid, football fans were behind it, it was honest, it was full of effort and hard work. I would rather do the right thing and lose than engineer, bully, threaten and bribe to win.

Well done us.

It's a bit plus ca change in Russia though, isn't it? Short-lived democracy under Yeltsin, in which the country was so systematically looted that the very concept of democracy was discredited. Now, ostensibly democratic autocracy. Things are way better than Soviet times but it is not a properly functioning democracy.

And then look what happened. Still, if you have such high regard for it over the UK you could always try your luck there. Enjoy.

That response was to Craig.

"not a properly functioning democracy" is awfully generous, isn't it? For one, Medvedev is a complete puppet. I think you're being too nice

May I just say I don't think the Olympics was wholly responsble for perestroika, glasnost, and the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the Berlin Wall.

May I also say, that from a distance, untouched by significant understanding, Russia may seem a rather nicer place than it actually is.

In fact sports greatest gift and impact was in boycott: the wonderfully consistent South Africa boycott. There's a greater response to boycott than collusion. Like that will ever happen again.

Appletrees - I don't hold Russia in a particularly high regard. I did visit the place when it was still the Soviet Union and had a wonderful month visiting Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev and along the Crimean coast, whilst it was still a 'closed' society. It was a vast and beautiful country, obv. less vast since the breakup of states! I also admired it's role in the defeat of Nazism, which Brits. tend to forget. But also there are numerous drawbacks.

obv. your comments on the Olympic Games not being soley responsible for openness and reconstruction are correct. But I didn't say anything to the contrary. And no it isn't a 'proper functioning democracy', but history slowly unravels things. And your invitation for me to go there isn't necesary and a bit crude.

And yet you seem to think we played the same game as the Russians and are now cross because we didn't play it as well as they did. You assume this why? despite the weight of evidence to the contrary? or just because you can't bear to admit that we did right when others didn't? I suspect the latter.

Most countries can be lovely and wonderful to a tourist. People are so friendly! The local street food is so delicious! Marvellous architecture! It must have been delightful doing the garden route in South Africa in the 1970s. If you were white.

Yeah well. Make your judgement on that if you want to.

Frankly I am losing a sense of caring what you believe. I DO suspect though that a country/administration which has lots of recent experience in bidding for international events, WC, C'm'n Wealth Games and Olympics,( as well as rugby tournaments) both successfully and unsuccessfully, know what the murkynesses involved are. It is also fair to assume that they also used these experiences to 'work' the process, but in this case failed.

The arguments re the effect of the British media is speculation, though one C'm't'e member indicates it was a point bourne in mind, wrongly IMO.

Overall it would have been sensible for FIFA to indicate what sort of geographic location, or other definition of likely winners is. £15m is A LOT of money, and a clearer pointer would have assisted.

Appletrees - forget it. Exchanging with you is now too tiresome. Other things to do.

Of course you are -- you never had a decent point so you have to not care about what someone else says or you might have to admit you're wrong.

I think Britain did have an idea, but was unaware of how deep it went, and thought it was "rogue elements" which had been dealt with b suspensions. Plainly you sill think we were as bad as the Russians, which is ridiculous and rather wilful.

Yeah yeah -- trans: I'm talking rubbish but can't stand to recognise it.

I mean, of course, that's what people always mean when then say "I don'tcare what you think and this is becoming tiresome".

Oh, Appletrees, I wasn't trying to be nice about the current Russian regime, hence my calling it ostensibly democratic autocracy.

I agree with your tourism point, in fact it is part of the danger of these great international shindigs landing in repressive countries. Locals are removed, threatened, oppressed and the place sanitised so the tourists can come and get a quite undeserved favourable impression.

Even South Africa cleared out a lot of local traders, kiosks, markets etc before the World Cup. Partly to whitewash the poverty, partly for security, partly to placate sponsors like MCD's who demand exclusive rights to operate in the grounds.

FIFA earns vast amounts as a result, and to be fair I don't know how it spends that money but somehow doubt it is spent in an especially fair or enlightened way.

It certainly didn't bother to spend much time or effort investigating the claims that the North Korean football team and officials faced terrible punishments back home for having failed to win a game.

The more I think about it, the more I realise it is entirely fitting that the World Cup should go to countries like Russia and Qatar (which has graciously agreed to allow women to attend the World Cup matches as a temporary exception to its usual state of affairs).

I do quite a bit of business with Russia and they do appear to have the mentality of Medieval Robber Barons. Except they drive BMWs intead of war horses.
It is actually quite scary. UK is not perfect but at least we have people in government who occasionally try to do something decent.

yes, Eldritch - when the England bidded for the Olympics, or the Commonwealth Games (forget which) in the 1990's, Manchester experienced a really nasty crack down on anything which the visisting delegates wouldn't wish to see. Like people actually on the streets! Moss Side was very heavily policed for about a week, even more so that usual, and all sorts of unwarranted arrests were made, and people kept in custody until the visitors had left.
I know this as I both lived and worked there at the time. A 'mild' exercise comparartively, but it was still shocking to see the policing and magistrates decisions re granting bail to those 'offenders'.

Eldritch, yes, very well put. And I like your last point too. The more I think about it, I can imagine the import of even greater corruption and mendacity in the World Cup had we won it than has already been established in the UK. Imagine the bribes being offered to refs and linesmen, imagine the cartels. It makes the game worthless. Look at cricket in Pakistan -- it makes you think, what the hell is the point of even putting on your pads?

There we are -- we're as bad as China and Russia again.

I dare you.

Come off it. Admit it -- we aren't.

Well i don' know what happeed thre but it was all in the wong order.

Craig, it was the Commonwealth Games. What you describe is wrong and bad (and indicates that these events can have a corrupting effect, using corrupting in its widest sense), but surely not as bad as some places?

No one in Moss Side had their homes bulldozed without compensation (Beijing), or went to prison without charge to prevent them protesting while the Games were on (ditto)?

no , of course they didn't and I wouldn't suggest they did. I mentioned it as a sort of balancer, that the dynamics around these things are similar to some degree. Though yes I knew some people who were arrested for fear of them demonstrating and kept in custody for trumped up public order offences until the delegates had left. They were here for 4-5 days and it was an exrecise in cleaning up the streets.

What should have been said this week is that despite strong evidence in Panorama that FIFA officials are corrupt, our Prime Minister and a member of the Royal Family chose to ignore the fact and continued to arse lick those very same FIFA officials. A whiter than white country would have taken a "forget the bid, we don't want to be involved with you, come back and talk to us when you have sorted yourselves out" approach.
Oh, and did David Cameron really describe Prince William as "the next king of England"? If so, he's insulted the Welsh, Scots and Irish - and shown how incredibly stupid he is, all in one fell swoop. Or did Prince Charles die and no-one noticed?

well DC has form for this sort of thing, hasn't he.

Sorry Craig, rogue question mark, I know you didn't suggest that.