to think most would not really want a secondary modern

[inkyfingers]

OK, tell me why the 'grammar school system' is good for the 85% who don't get a place? I love the pace and challenge etc the GS offers (as many MNers tell me), but how does the alternative serve the huge majority of pupils? (cos surely a 'system' has to benefit as many as possible??).

If it's a really good wheeze, then the GS supporters would surely be happy if their own DC don't get places?

A good wheeze?

I have no idea, we don't have grammar schools round here

Theres only comprehensives where I live thank goodness

whatever - a brilliant idea to push the brightest and best...

Because the truth is that some secondary moderns are shit and they cannot be selective in the same way that grammars are. I have taught in both and I know which one I'd prefer the DCs to go to.

Just keep your kids out of the academies and sports colleges, that's all I've got to say!

We live in a grammar school area. The county stats are that 30% go to grammar school, not 15%. The secondary moderns are also very good, and when we moved out here, our local one got better GCSE and A level results than the comprehensive in the area we moved from.

My three DCs all passed the 11+, so I may be biased. But they all keep in touch with friends who didn't pass, and the links between all the schools are strong, with more academic children who failed the 11+ coming into grammar schools after the 12+, and after GCSEs.

my sentiments exactly inkyfingers!

before comprehensive education was introduced, there were a lot more vocational courses of study, and it meant that less-academic hcildren could get on in life and find something that suited them.

when they introduced comprehensive, a lot of the vocational courses went.

they're bringing them back now, so maybe the grammar and non-grammar system would work better.

but, i think grammar schools since the comps became a way to separate the poorer children (and yes, i do mean poorer - they're the ones whose parents are less likely to buy them books or be able to invest in educational activities)

So the 'shit' schools are good enough for those who have to go there?

I never buy my children books I spend all my money on fags and cider

I live in an area where there is one gs for girls and one for boys. As a result the gs places are highly sought and tutoring begins in yr 5 for many. However the state comps are still really good, some getting excellent results not far off gs stds. I have a yr 5 dd who is gifted and talented and really feel that the catchment comp would suit her better than the gs after visiting both this year. She loved the gs but LOVED the comp as it has really modern facilities.

In Northern Ireland, up until recently, the funding per head meant that a child at a grammar got more money towards their education than a child at a secondary. Interesting, N.Irish girls have continually got the top grades in GCSEs since the exam was introduced - however - N.Ireland also produces the most school leavers with no GCSEs. Therefore it would seem that the clever children gain at the weaker ones' expense.

usualsuspect - I'm not kidding. you see it in inner-city areas too.

anywhere where there are poorer families, you get deprived children and poor schools.
It has everything to do with money.

I'm not defending a Guardian-tendency - I hate bog-standard comps that aren't ambitious for their pupils. But really worry (after listening to Any Questions? today), that pro-GS means leaving more pupils with even lower aspirations and achievement ... so depressing!

no grammar schools

here but very goods comps and one of them is a sports collage that 5 years ago was considered one of the last choices in the area

they worked hard and now if you dont o
p ut it as your first choice your unlikely to get a place and they do push their pupils ds is thriving there and has too gcse early already and is not the only ones to do so

Here it is a lot less than 15% who go to grammar schools, and the secondary a couple of the secondary moderns are "outstanding" and popular with parents.

I do feel for the reasonably academic children who for whatever reason don't pass the 11+, and feel like failures before they hit their teens, and spend the next few years dumming down so they aren't called boffin, etc.

Sorry, I can't tell you why the system is good for DC at secondary moderns, and I am very unlikely to send my non academic DC to one. I shall be looking at travelling to a comprehensive, or a bilateral.

oh and i do buy all ds2 books which this year added up to over £140 and i will find the money for the Gcse trips he be doing have asked for list so i can start putting away

and yes im single parent but funny enough i dont spend money on boze and fags or own a widescreen plasma tv

Until all schools are of identical standard there is discrimination built into the system whichever way you turn. Religious schools discriminate against the non-religious, grammar schools discriminate against the non-academic... and the rest discriminate against those who can't afford to relocate to a home within a 1 mile radius.

I happen to think that the grammar school discrimination is the most 'honest'.... academic schools for academic children regardless of where they live or what religion they do/don't support, why not? But the rest of the schools have to be just as good a standard, even if their focus is slightly different.

I don't know what the stat in kent is, but Sittingbourne has 2 grammars and 3 comprehensives (or community schools, i think they are here).

when i was 11, i would have given my eye-teeth to be able to go to a grammar school (Nottingham, so all comprehensive), but now I live in an area that has them, I'm not so sure.
I have a friend who had a bad experience of her grammar school, and didn't do well there.
The schools all seem to have specialisms now, too, and at least 1 of them is going to be an academy (can't keep up with the current statuses).
I like the look of Westlands, which is one of the community schools, but just looks better.

none of them are particularly musical, though, so that might not be good.
(sending myself at least 11 years into the future to make a school decision for twinkle-in-the-eye)

Secondary mods don't really exist now, but when everyone had to do 11+, it was the school you went to if you failed. Lots of people want to bring back GS across the board, but that has to mean schools for those who don't pass.

I guess they'll be like comps without the top stream...

The trouble is that the theory of the tripartite system (grammars, technical schools and secondary moderns) was great. People have different strengths, and it seems only sensible to cater to those in education.

Flaw number one can be seen in the fact that the system never lived up to its name - the technical schools, which it seems to me were a key part of the system - never really got built.

Apart from that there is the problem that the grammar schools are seen as 'best' and therefore parents with the money/ability will coach their children to pass the eleven plus. And of course, what about those children whose strengths / abilities are not clear at age 11 . . . there are many other problems, of course.

Having said that, my mother, who, very unusually for her area/background, passed the 11 plus and went to grammar school (she says that in every year there was a token working class girl, a token Jewish girl, and a token black girl, which in itself really sums things up) - is still of the opinion that in inner cities they may be the best of a bad set of options. In that - in her words- they give a few kids a chance to get out.

inky

not always

Ds2 did pass the 11 plus where welived but he choose after lot of thought not to take offer of the place as he felt the comp had better faclites

oh, and i would never imply that poor parents spend all their money on fags, booze and plasma TVs.
a lot of families can't afford to buy "luxuries" for their children. In my family, books were a luxury - it just happened that I loved them and spent hours and hours at the library (and got jumble sale books)
a lot of kids in my school never had any books and a lot of them never read if they didn't have to for school.
that was an attitude bred from poverty and lack of opportunity, not from spending on frivolities.

We only have a comp here and won't be sending any of the dc to public school.

But... I always thought that the idea of a secondary modern was a fab idea for kids who are less academic.

DD1 is not in the slightest academic and would have really benefited from more of an apprenticeship type education.

and i totally agree with Takver - technical schools are a bloody good idea, and the only way to cover those who seem to fall through the gap in the system.