to think most would not really want a secondary modern

[inkyfingers]

OK, tell me why the 'grammar school system' is good for the 85% who don't get a place? I love the pace and challenge etc the GS offers (as many MNers tell me), but how does the alternative serve the huge majority of pupils? (cos surely a 'system' has to benefit as many as possible??).

If it's a really good wheeze, then the GS supporters would surely be happy if their own DC don't get places?

''Why shouldn't children from private primary schools be allowed into grammar schools. They have as much right as children from state primary schools to go to a grammar school''

Because, like I said, they have an unfair advantage. They get set different work in their normal lessons to prepare them for the 11+ or entrance exams. Even an hours tutoring a week can't compete with that. My friends dd goes to a private prep school, and she got 10 weeks worth of extra lessons just for the reasoning parts of the exam, on top of being given extra support in English and mats lessons. How is a child from a state school where they give no extra preparation supposed to do as well, even if they are getting help from parents at home?

I see where you are coming from, it would be unfair to discriminate against children because they come from a prep school, but what chance does that give the children from the state schools? They have to be twice as clever to have any hope at all.

Raising pay won't motivate them more- teachers are paid more than ever, but the working conditions are leading to very poor retention rates- NQTs are leaving the profession after very short careers.

maybe schools could sponsor school leavers and help fund their degrees so they would have more allegiance to the school

The problem with 'one size fits all' approach is that it alway caters to the lowest common denominator.
Schools specialising allows those who are gifted (even a small bit, not talking stupid G&T labelling) to develop and shine. At least if children get to attend a school that specialises in something they're interested in, there's half a chance they'll actually turn up and attend until they're 17.

''How is it in the private schools interests for the children to pass the 11+ ? They would rather the children and the money stayed in the private system so there's nothing in it for them to tutor the children, so they don't.''

Plenty of parents use the grammar school exam as a practice for the public school exam.

Plain Wrong.

And I can't see how it makes much difference to a prep school where their children go when they leave, apart from being able to say that their children passed exams. In financial ters, it makes no difference to them at all whether their children go on to another private school, a grammar or a comp.

Where exactly would that money come from sea?
Schools don't have pots of money hanging around IME, without having a specific plan for it (eg- new kitchens needed, removal of asbestos, etc)

adream actually retention in teaching is no worse than in accountancy...

i do think alot of misinformation is passed about now too

my ds(17) has just gone into the sixth form at his comp. his friends are all motivated to turn up

league tables have probably made lots of parents unduly paranoid

to fund degrees? the goverment is saving £££ as they have got rid of the CWDC and playengland etc etc etc

Private education is a route to unearned priveledge.

All private education should be outlawed in this day an age, the children of Cameron and Gideon should have to use the local comp

Curly, stand alone preps aren't that common certainly around here most have closed down in the past 5 years.
The private schools have a massive interest in keeping children in the system and the parents spreading the word about how well young Archibald has done with his private education to ensure others chose the same path.
We are going to move ours to the grammars in year 7 from prep and are considered "brave".

Unearned priveledge trust me I earn every bloody penny of the "privilege"

do you not feel guilty that you are depriving a child that place when you could have afforded a private school for them instead?

There are only comprehensives near me and they are excellent with GCSE pass rates close to 70 and 80%.

I would consider both G or C though.

Loud alarm bells do ring though when i hear from my friend (works in a girls grammer) about the high level of self harm, pressure and bitchieness.

Heheh PE- yeah, but I'm not too worried about the forthcoming shortage of accountants tbh- I can manage a tax return myself. The point is, things are going to get very hairy in education over the next 10 years... there are a lot of teachers about to retire.

newwave- if private education is paid for, the privilege is hardly unearned, is it?

Forcing people to use their local comp will just ensure they move- people who can afford fee-paying schools can afford to price anyone else out of the housing market around the best state schools too.

I can't afford secondary private otherwise they would be staying.

mamatomany standalone preps are the norm in my LA.

Mama, maybe you do but it should not be allowed to use it to buy your children an unfair advantage that other cannot afford, the rich will have enough advantages in life so mixing at school will give them a grounding in what real life is like.

The grammer schools don't need to be good for the 85% that don't get in. The High schools need to be good for them.

Getting rid of the GS would not necessarilly benefit the other 85%.

Maybe we are lucky in this part of the country that all of the schools are very good and any DC will do well if they want to.

I want DS to go to the GS because he is in the top 1% sailing through everything and I think it will be good for him to compete with the most academically gifted DCs.

I think that different schools suit different DCs. My other two DCs went to the high school.

I think one would have struggled to keep up at a GS and the other took a vocational course, attending college at the age of 14 to do hairdressing.

My DD is not academically gifted but she is an excellent hairdresser, artist and pianist. It did not concern me that others were getting into a GS, when I knew she wouldn't no matter how much tutoring she had.

"schools should be all inclusive and offer everything to all pupils of all abilities."

that's a huge ask, and difficult to provide. An as mamatomany has pointed out it will not benefit the top or bottom of the class, as the majority of the schools attention has to go to the pupils in the middle. Which is still the case in secondary and grammar schools, but it is easier to accomodate the extremes if they aren't so far apart.

but i said alreadly kaloki that happened in my school in the 80s it just worked!

Well i must say that surprises me on the basis that we have 4 grammars locally you'd expect we would have lots of preps to feedinto the grammars but we don't so that says to me that either the primaries are excellent and there's no need for preps, not the case in my experience or that the children tend to stay in private once they start. Out of year 6 we are only one of 3 families leaving.

there is also going to be a slow decline in numbers of children.....a birth rate of 1.9 guarantees a slow decrease....so a decline in teacher numbers is not necessarily a problem.

skybluepearl well- lucky you [slow clap]

My closest 3 comprehensives had 27%, 33%, and 31%, not that my dd can actually attend the school with 33% as it is boys only

and a slow birth rate will make parents more selective and pushy

though china, ironically, has an amazingly high level of high calibre students