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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think it's a bit archaic

92 replies

hobnobsaremyfavourite · 16/11/2010 12:11

On the news they have made a huge thing that William "sought the permission" of Kate's father to marry her! I mean WTF what century is this!! Is Kate not able to make her own decisions??? I know it's all symbolic but surely it's not the dark ages.

OP posts:

VinegarTits · 16/11/2010 13:23

my ds1 appraoched both her parents, and asked for thier blessing not their permission

i think if you are so oppossed to such traditions why get married? marriage is the biggest archaic tradition there is! you cant just pick out bits of the marriage tradition and then claim to be a femanist

VinegarTits · 16/11/2010 13:25

and why bother getting married if you keep your name, whats the point, its just a piece of paper if you dont believe in the tradition of marriage

RibenaBerry · 16/11/2010 13:27

My DH did not 'ask' for permission to marry me. He knew I'd have killed him! We called up my parents and told them we were engaged.

Mind you, my Dad really wanted to walk me down the aisle, so I let him on the understanding that he knew he wasn't giving me away .

Bramshott · 16/11/2010 13:28

Yes, I was very about that.

booyhoo · 16/11/2010 13:28

marriage provides legal security that co-habiting doesn't VT.

and of course people can pick parts out of a tradition that they feel are important to them.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 16/11/2010 13:31

my exH and dad were driving round dusty Zimbabwean roads trying to find somewhere that would sell use around 20 chickens..........as opposed to 20 tonnes of chicken when he asked his blessing

whenskiesaregrey · 16/11/2010 13:31

DH asked my dad before asking me. He actually said 'I'm going to ask WSAG to marry me, and I would like your blessing'. He also then seperately asked my mum (my mum and dad are very much divorced ). I think in our case it was just to know that they were on board with it, and we had their support. There is a 19 year age gap between us, so it was nice to know that everyone was behind us.

VinegarTits - I think it was nice of your DS to do that, and I think it shows to his future PILs that he values their opinion. However, I do not think that anyone in this day and age would say no, and asking for permission/ blessing is more for the tradition that actually asking for permission.

As you said, is it not similar to taking your husband's name? You are giving up your father's name and taking your husbands.

Hobnobs that is a sad story. Hopefully, that would never happen anymore.

VinegarTits · 16/11/2010 13:35

i like to think i bought him up to respect other people beliefs/opinions/feelings, not just wade in and do whatever he pleases and to suit himself

PrincessFiorimonde · 16/11/2010 13:37

VinegarTits: agree with you that marriage is the biggest archaic institution going. But it still confers rights/security that just living with someone does not confer.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I got married (21 years ago), it was partly because of that security, but mostly to have an occasion with a party to mark our commitment to each other (ha ha - the marriage didn't last). And partly, if I'm honest, it was to keep my parents happy - even though we did not marry in church (I couldn't face being 'given away', and both of us were atheists anyway), my very traditional parents would have found it hard to accept us 'as a couple' without a wedding certificate. Patriarchal pressure, if you like ...

However, having long since left XH, I have now lived with my DP for 10 years without benefit of either clergy or register office. It works for us. But good luck to your DS and to anyone else who finds a different way works for them.

Fibilou · 16/11/2010 13:43

"My problem with the Kate/William thing is that she just seems to have been sitting around since university waiting for William to ask her. Got to be more to life surely?"

And you know that, do you, because of your close links with the Royal Family ? Seems you're well named !

Plenty of people wait 8 years to get engaged, if I was going to become Queen I think I'd like to give it a bit of thought. And it's not as if they're 80 is it, I believe they will be well under the national average age for a first marriage

Fibilou · 16/11/2010 13:45

"Marriage historically was viewed as a joining of families not just of two people. The view of marriage as "just about us two" is very new"

And whether people like it or not, the fact that it's a joining of 2 families IS true. Look at how many issues there are on this board with ILs. If a marriage is to really flourish I think there does have to be an element of happy families

minipie · 16/11/2010 13:46

I told my (now) DH that I'd be really cross if he asked my dad's permission/blessing before proposing. (He didn't.)

Several reasons:

obviously, the decision is up to me, not my dad.

even if it's only symbolic, it's a symbol of something pretty grim - the days when who you married was up to your parents rather than you.

I wanted to be the first person to know that my DH wanted to marry me - rather than my parents knowing first.

If anyone was going to be asked for "permission" or "blessing" it should be my mum rather than my dad - she's a much shrewder judge of character and knows me better. Asking the father's permission only is sexist.

Vinegar - marriage to me is about making a formal and public promise to stay with someone, be faithful to them, and do your best to make things work, for the rest of your life. Everything else (name change, white dress, ring, whatever) is just decoration.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 16/11/2010 13:50

"And whether people like it or not, the fact that it's a joining of 2 families IS true. Look at how many issues there are on this board with ILs. If a marriage is to really flourish I think there does have to be an element of happy families"

agree with that.

That was the one of the few good things about my marriage, we all got along. (pretty much - though animosity between me and my own family ).

My ex IL's STILL ask after my family when we speak, and I believe exH is in infrequent contact with my family (or at least my parents)

minipie - how do you know your DH didn't discuss it with friends first?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 16/11/2010 14:11

YANBU. But then the existence of Prince William as the heir to the throne etc is archaic in itself.

My dad and I have laughed at the idea that anyone would ask him first/at all. He said if it happened he would ask what the bloody hell the man was asking him for, then ring me up to alert me to the fact that DP was a sexist, old-fashioned idiot who had obviously never listened to a word I had said.

Arf @ what's the point in getting married if you don't want to change your name. What's the point in getting married if you think its only point IS to change your name? That's what deed poll is there for, and you don't need to buy hats for that.

PrincessFiorimonde · 16/11/2010 14:19

Filibou: "'My problem with the Kate/William thing is that she just seems to have been sitting around since university waiting for William to ask her. Got to be more to life surely?'

"And you know that, do you, because of your close links with the Royal Family? Seems you're well named!"

I think that whatdoiknow is referring to stuff that's been widely reported:

since leaving university, KM has had little in the way of what most of us would recognise as a proper job (a few months as a part-time buyer for Jigsaw; a short stint working in her parents' business)

KM has been said not to have had a 'proper job' because she has just wanted to be available at the drop of a hat if William wants to call/whisk her off somewhere in his helicopter.

Obviously, the media reports relating to the second point may all be untrue. But, since these are stories that have been widely reported (not just in the tabloids), it seems to me that whatdoiknow is perfectly justified in her comment.

Fibilou · 16/11/2010 14:27

Yes, the media are a well-known fount of non-biased accuracy

PrincessFiorimonde · 16/11/2010 14:33

Fibilou: sorry I spelled your name wrong.

ChocolateMoose · 16/11/2010 14:41

When I first heard of one of my contemporaries having asked his fiancee's father for 'permission' before asking her to marry him, I was very surprised that anyone still did that. I find that tradition quite creepy, and would hate the idea that anyone else got to know about my engagement before I did.

Oh, and I did change my name on getting married, but have no problem understanding why women want to marry even if they don't change their name.

ChocolateMoose · 16/11/2010 14:42

"marriage to me is about making a formal and public promise to stay with someone, be faithful to them, and do your best to make things work, for the rest of your life. Everything else (name change, white dress, ring, whatever) is just decoration."

What minipie said.

minipie · 16/11/2010 14:49

"minipie - how do you know your DH didn't discuss it with friends first?"

That's a fair point, Baroque. I doubt he would have, as he's quite private about that sort of thing. However I think I wouldn't really have minded that so much... can't quite put my finger on why, I suppose it's because if he discussed it with his friends they would really be discussing him whereas if he discussed it with my parents they would be discussing me. If that makes any sense. I wouldn't like it if he'd discussed it with my friends before me, but discussing it with his friends is ok.

BaroqueAroundTheClock · 16/11/2010 15:12

well I know if I were thinking of proposing to someone and talked about it with my friends I wouldn't be discussing "me" - i'd be discusssing him

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 16/11/2010 15:45

while we're on archaic wedding traditions - I find it creepy when everyone stands up and talks about the bride in the speeches while she sits in the middle like a pudding. Not that the bride should have to speak if she doesn't want to - but the tradition is for her to STFU while her previous owner father and new owner husband discuss her relative merits - teeth, hair, hooves, milk yield etc...

LoopyLoops · 16/11/2010 15:47

Right up there with being "given away", and "obeying", it is far from what we have grown to expect as modern, free-thinking women.

whatdoiknowanyway · 16/11/2010 16:05

Thanks Princess
Fibilou the key word in my post was 'seems'.
Like or loathe, the Royal family are seen by many as role models. Since graduation Kate has been presented in the press as not holding down a long term job. She has done nothing to contradict that perception. Hence she 'seems' to have done nothing.

thefurryone · 16/11/2010 16:30

I'm in two minds about this the feminist in me thinks it's appalling that a woman can only get married if her father allows it but generally that isn't the case and I don't know a single couple who when the father was asked wouldn't have got married anyway if he'd said no, so look on it now as a sweet traddition that helps bring families together.

In terms of the royal engagement I imagine there would have been a huge fuss if William had asked the Queen but not Kate's Dad about him snubbing the commoner or something, on which point I find it totally offensive that the press keep calling Kate a "commoner".

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