to think early pregnancy scans should not be offered on the NHS

[nancydrewrocked]

OK I am prepared to be flamed but I couldn't help thinking this when I spoke to a friend recently. So tell me why I ABU.

Friend has just started ttc. No difficulties, no previous history. 2nd month of trying she gets a +ve the day her period is due. Two weeks later another scan no HB. Friend understandably very upset.

But I can't help thinking this would have been easier on her if the GP had gently told her to go home take it easy and then done a blood/pregnancy test in 2 weeks. It also strikes me as a enormous and unecessary cost, especially when many areas no longer offer routine 12 week or nuchal scans.

tbh, Nancy, bleeding is a problematic symptom until you know it isn't, iyswim? If I'd just bled and miscarried I might have developed a malignant mole in my uterus.

for the record, nancy, i don't think you were out to upset At All. i just think you weren't in full possession of the facts.

exactly, habs. what a shitey time that was for you... thank goodness for dd and ds. (and dishy dh).

I also don't think you were out to upset, but am not entirely sure that you really have learned anything from the responses you have got.

Hab - I had an erpc - and still the mp went on...

Well, fortunately hosp were right on the ball, Aitch, or it would have been a lot more difficult. Thank fuck for EPU. Nancy, fwiw I don't think you were stirring; I've learnt the hard way from being rare twice over. I wouldn't recommend it.

(paws off DH, Aitch. But if you think he looks good, you should see my wee boy...)

yy, me too, mistle, thankfully hosp were on the ball and ssecond ERPC under ultrasound sorted it out. Scary at the time, isn't it? Can still picture the regrown mole on the scan, with its own blood supply and everything.

I never saw the scan - first or second time. I was told by the registrar 'sorry you are not pregnant' - this was 3 mo after 1st erpc and no chance of anything like that until things had got straight. But 2nd erpc didn't do it for me either. But I'm alive now and I wouldn't have been. And I have a wonderful ds (who is going to be a real heart-breaker )

OP- I'm sure that 182 posts you have changed your mind, and people's lives being saved by identifying ectopic pregnancies, but I'll just mention my fourth pregnancy during which I haemorrhaged (I don't think that's too strong a word for the level of bleeding) four times in the first three months, each time a scan showed my little foetus still in fine fettle and growing, until the last one at 13 weeks. If I had ignored the bleeding (a bit difficult to do but hey) and put up with the months of pain until the missed miscarriage I don't think I would have come out of that as mentally sound as I have. I am jolly glad for my early scans that showed (at that time) that the pain and bleeding were not in vain.

3 months! Bloody hell. Did they not do tissue tests after first ERPC? That's how mine was diagnosed (partial, so not immediately obvious from scan).

Nancy, I actually think this thread should stay as people do need to know that bleeding can actually mean something sinister, and that they should be aware of possibilities.

Hab - 1st erpc was when I was on holiday - or the day I was travelling home at least. They basically said to me - erpc or you could have a really heavy bleed and if you're not in hosp for that it could be dangerous. But they had all my details (and it was in the UK) and promised that the results would be highlighted to my Dr and consultant (already seeing someone about problems ttc). So, when I kept on going to the Dr complaining about bleeding, they looked, saw that they'd had nothing from the other hospital, and said that it must be taking 'a while' to get back to normal. The fact that during 2nd eprc I effectively lost 1.5l of blood, having been haemoraging on and off for 3 mo left me somewhat wobbly....

Jeez, mistle. Did you have those mad bleeds? I had about 3 or 4 over a few days, and that was enough. Over 3 mo would be a nightmare. And what a crappy holiday!

So now I've stopped sobbing.

We've learnt that there are some horrid people in the NHS who sit there silently condemning those timewaster early pregnant women with bleeding (we don't go for the dildo cam for fun... apparently it used to vibrate though so I was informed by the sonographer).

We've learnt kiddies how ectopic pregnancies can at best knack your fertility and at worst kill you, and surprisingly - CAN BE PICKED UP BY THESE EVIL WASTE OF RESOURCES EARLY SCANS.

We've learnt how, from the words of a recurrent miscarriage specialist consultant (trying to remember it word-for-word, may be a slight paraphrase), "sometimes the monitoring and reassurance that we're scanning and watching the pregnancy can be all that's needed to finally produce a successful outcome."

We've learnt that bleeding doesn't automatically equal miscarriage - but some cruel people would rather you were just left to stew and wonder what's still going on in there, than get a decent answer from a scan.

We've learnt how, yet again, miscarriages are met with shameful ignorance, rudeness, arrogance and an "I'm all right Jack" attitude by far far too many people, and how some women can be so bloody unkind to their own kind.

To those who condemn this scanning - I assume that if you get pregnant again and start bleeding, you won't go running to the doctor and ask for a scan, and you'll just sit at home stoically cooking whatever might/might not be in the oven for 12 weeks. I bet to hell you wouldn't and you'd be down there straight away... and you'd be grateful for any answers they give you... and I hope to hell you never have to hear the words any of us have had to hear of "you ARE sure about your dates aren't you?" (anyone who's been on the recieving end of that line will know how it chills your blood)

The images from my scans are seared, with photographic clarity on mine and my husband's mind and heart forever. The first one, with what looked like an empty sac (wonder where my name came from now huh?) but with the knowledge I have a wonky uterus so could quite easily scan smaller than dates... the second, with another sac there in the distance and the foetus with no heartbeat clearly visible, and the third which I refused to see of it all starting to disintegrate. I'm still glad they scanned me, even though the outcome ripped my soul in two - because I knew the bombshell earlier and I had some degree of control of my life. I hadn't even started to miscarry by the time I was pushing towards 12 weeks... I'm glad I hadn't floated happily through the first trimester to get that horrible bombshell then. I was in limbo knowing things were looking distinctly bleak for a month because of changes between scan 1 and scan 2... I'm not sat here demanding they stop offering them on the NHS, despite the pain and heartache they caused me - I appreciated knowing things weren't looking good.

OP hasn't even bothered to read any of the reasons given which disgusts me, as the the attitude of the lovely person condemning us as "blocking" other more important cases from NHS resources. I would hope that one day they're on the other side of things - but I wouldn't wish it on anything.

Thread will get pulled, as threads always do when someone doesn't get the "pat-pat you're so right" that they want. I think it should stay as an indication of how ignorant and downright vicious (the attitudes from within the NHS horrified me) things can be against those miscarrying.

Hmmm - trouble is that it was a music week - and we still go (now with ds too) - and I will never play that piece of chamber music with the same attitude again. Last piece I played before the spotting started was 'transfigured night'.

Mad bleeds - yes - I think the worst went through a night-time pad, all clothes and into the car seat in about 20mins.

And yet the Dr said it was fine.

Wasn't until I saw a locum that they thought that they should perhaps examine me - and I happened just to have started bleeding again at the time - thankfully.

Even then it had started going through the wall of the womb - you know its pretty serious when you have a 8.30am scan - you eventually (after the clinic has emptied out) see the registrar at 1.30 - he speaks to a senior registrar (who happens to be a friend) who calls in her consultant, an anaesthatist from another dept and gets 2nd erpc scheduled and started within 2hrs of finding out - all on a Friday afternoon.

oh love, i know this has been a terrible read for you today but i don't think nancy ever meant you to feel that way. she just didn't know. and as many of us do, she defended her view for a while before realising the error of it. i'm sorry you've had such a rotten time of it all wrt your pregnancies, it's misery.

YABU.

Very good post Empty.

I echo your sentiments and think you've written down what it feels like really eloquently.

Have been thinking of you.

Perhaps the sentiment that the OP was getting at was that in some ways, the days of old when women often didn't know they were pregnant before early miscarriages actually prevented a lot of heartache. A 'late period' must be a much easier thing to deal with than a miscarriage when hope has been attached to a pregnancy, and maybe there is a valid argument against very early testing for that reason. As people have pointed out, it was a double-edged sword because more women also died of ectopics and other complications when not aware of being pregnant.

Those days are gone however and medical science, early testing and scanning now put us in a very different relationship with our bodies and our pregnancies, and there's no point being all misguidedly nostalgic about when things were different. There seems to be little argument that it would be better, given the medical science now available, 'not to know', when, as people have pointed out, not knowing could also be a preventable health risk.

This is all besides the psychological benefit of medical support to those women whose pregnancies do run into early difficulties - I am thankful that I don't know that pain myself but I sympathise very deeply with all you women who have suffered a miscarriage. There are many things we could argue about the NHS funding or not funding, this surely isn't one of them.

good post, quodli. and i think we should remember that nancy posted out of concern for her friend's suffering (even if her logic was entirely knuckle-headed. )

What Quodlibet and empty said.

OP, I wouldn't want this thread to stand either, in your shoes, but I don't think it should be pulled just because lots of people have informed you that they found your phrasing/opinions insensitive.

There is useful information here, and some very very eloquent demonstrations of just WHY early scans are so important to so many of us.

i have suffered a 1 ectopic pregnancy and 2 miscarriages, scans are a vital part of being pregnant....
also my ds whos 8 had a stroke whilst i was pregnant with him,without scans,this would have not been found out and things could be a lot worse....

has anyone also mentioned that if a miscarriage is incomplete , then there are health risks and therefore it is important to know if it is a 'late'heavy' period or a miscarriage

I think it was outstandingly naive for the OP to start this thread without full possession of the basic facts re early scans etc

also, reading between the lines, her friend was given duff info/not enough info by her GP and her expectations were not managed or addressed

I've had early scans in both pregnancies..due to bleeding and a possible ectopic. scans and blood tess are necessary to give correct info and prognosis and safeguard the mother and hopefully the baby.

I think early scans can be a blessing and a curse for lots of reasons ,which have been touched on, but you can test to see if you're pregnant before you've missed a period, we are hurrying things along so much and tehre are resonsibilities taht come along with progress

Excellent post, quodlibet

i do agree with the points made about early testing. i have been guilty of it in the past. but over the last ive years have wasted a lot of money and tears on those weesticks.

You are being unreasonable. I had a bleed at 9 and a half weeks, 11 and a half weeks and 12 and a half weeks, the last one being quite heavy. I had a scan after the 1st and the 3rd bleed, which put my mind at rest (after the third, which was on Sunday, I was willing to wait until until today when I had my dating scan but the midwives were not happy with that). A friend of mine miscarried last Monday, after a weekend of bleeds, she went through a lot for 4 days, an early scan may have given her more insight into what was happening. Early scans do cost money, but they also help many women and 2 weeks may not seem a long time if you have never experienced a miscarriage or threatened one but believe me a day is like an eternity if you are waiting to find out what is happening inside your own body to a much wanted baby.