not to understand people with very young children who say they have no choice but to work?

[nesomja]

Whenever there's anything that touches on being a SAHM / WOHM on here, several people pop up saying how lucky people are to have a choice, that they have no choice but to work and basically to stop whinging about it. I can't work it out because I am pretty sure that next year when I will have two under-3s, it will cost us money for every day I work as childcare is so expensive. So are all the people who say they have no choice those with older children or only one child? Or are they very high earners or do they have access to low cost childcare? For me it feels the other way round, that I will not be able to choose to work - but yet it often seems to be presented as if SAHM are living a luxury lifestyle, propped up by their wealthy husbands. Why is it okay not to be able to afford not to work, but not okay not to be able to afford to go to work?

mjinhiding - please have a look at childcare vouchers and whether they are available to you and your DH. I didn't bother initially, but was amazed at the difference it makes. Might be worth a look x

(agree that it's total bullshit though - you going to work generates tax that should pay for your childcare - you're not working, so in a way costing the state more in lack of tax/NI contributions. Makes me MAAAD)

sorry... went off on one there...

YABU

most of my wages go on childcare. The piddly bit left over pays our monthly food bill. So without it we'd starve.....

mijn, can you use the shortfall as a pay rise negotiation tool? Men would I'm sure.

I think the OP is making an important point, that childcare isn't affordable for many.

However, many people don't pay full-childcare costs off-set against their salary, otherwise only high wage earners would work. As many others have said, we have juggled our working hours around childcare, got childcare from my mum (who does two days a week), worked shift type jobs, done anything rather than pay full-time childcare for two children which would be too expensive, but done anything to bring in more money as we couldn't live off one salary (as our debt mountain proves).

I do know people who work for no money, though, I have a friend who is a nurse and she was actually paying about £100 extra to have her children in nursery two days a week whilst she worked. But she put it like this 'it saves my sanity, I have to get out of the house, and I don't want to have to retrain in a few years'. She paid for a couple of years over the odds to continue work, and now they are at school, is benefitting from this choice.

YABVVU!!

What exactly has it got to do with you how other people live?

I cant afford not to work. I HAVE NO CHOICE. You, however you paint it, DO have one. You CHOOSE to stay at home for your own reasons and you ARE lucky that you have that CHOICE. If i didnt work then me my DH and i would be homeless. My DH earns usually £24K and i earn £12k per year. My DH came out of work last dec and it took him 7 months to find a job. If i didnt work, how would we have been able to afford to live??

Does your lack of "understanding" on this mean you see those who 'choose' to work as bad parents? You should stick to concentrating on your family and keep your views away from mine.

And it's also worth remembering that the period of just breaking even, or even making a loss while working, is far shorter nowadays than in yesterday. You can take a year off on ML, and then have 15 hours a week of free care when your child turns 3- so in actual fact it may only be two years you are forking out full childcare. Very much better than a few years back, when many women could only take 3 months ML and would then be paying full childcare for over 4 years until the child started school. Even so, many of us worked for no money simply for the long term gain- so I would have thought these days its an even more attractive option to Many women

I cannot afford to not work. DP and I both work full-time but both work very flexible hours which means that we have minimal childcare (2 mornings a week). The rest of the time we share the childcare between us and both fit in somehow full-time working hours. And yes, we're knackered.

Mjn - a nine month old should be MORE expensive than a three year old usually, as the staff ratios are higher.

Lynette, "None of them take DC until they have had their 5th birthdy. Noth very useful if you have a DC who has finished recption, but isn't 5 untill the end of August. I could go on, but that is a whole different topic!"

If you have an extra room, a summer aupair is quite a good option as summer hols cover. Can cover all dcs for the same cost v summer club.

I had no choice. I am main breadwinner. Don't start a thread like this and not expect a flaming you ridiculous creature.

Mj- I do agree with your point about affordability of childcare, and I think there are parallels in other areas such as uni costs. Govt policy has resulted in it being ok if you're rich or poor, but those in the middle get royally screwed.

The working/not working thing seems to me to pan out as follows:

1. Free childcare
2. Work around one another's work commitments, perhaps part-time
3. Pay for childcare
4. Don't work

Or a combination of the above depending on personal circumstances. All of those options have consequences.

But one thing which strikes me every time on these threads is how much short-term thinking there is. I don't think many people plan what will happen after they have children

"But one thing which strikes me every time on these threads is how much short-term thinking there is. I don't think many people plan what will happen after they have children"

Don't agree with this at all. I certainly put a lot of thought into it. But the choice came down to-
a)Have children, put them in childcare and work (although only pt still very knackering and not what I would want in an ideal world)

or b) Don't have children.

It was that simple. I think it's like that for a lot of families.

Hmmm I forgot c) Work for several more years, save lots of money and don't TTC until DH and I were much older- which also brings with it other concerns and issues.

pozzled - I agree it's very simple if a couple decide that their ideal world is not using any childcare, full stop.

However, I come across many women whose children are maybe 7, 10, even older, and career opportunities (and even job opportunities come to that - never mind career!) are extremely limited if they are determined always to find work which fits totally around school hours and terms. I know very few women who are really find this straightforward and fulfulling in the long run. And even fewer men! Because of course they are part of the equation too. I wonder how many men are genuinely happy to spend 40 or more years working their arse off full time, while their wife is pootling around doing pin money jobs long after the kids are at school?

I am facing this very problem. I have 1 5 y/o dd and am expecting DS1 in Jan. I would like to work, but don't see how I'll be able to.

The problems I face are: the govt are reducing the amount of childcare payment help given within CTC, my partner earns £18k so we are not eligible for WTC and I would be doing basic (low paid) office work. All this means I would not take home enough pay at the end of the month to make it worth the effort.

For those who want to jump in and call me lazy and tell me to work any way instead of scrounging off the state, I would point out the following: I DO NOT claim JSA, IS or anything like that, and I will not start when the baby is born. All DP and I get is a little housing benefit (we rent privately though), CTC and CB.

My only option is to try and get evening work, thus leaving DP with the baby which is fine, but I may consider not breast feeding to accommodate this.

I'm not sure that it's that simple for "a lot" of families Pozzled. If you truly believe that childcare is not ideal, then you do limit your choices. Otoh, if you accept that childcare can actually be a very good thing, and that children can actually be happy in that environment and can grow up into well adjusted happy teenagers and adults, then you open up all sorts of opportunities for yourself and your family, both in the immediate and long term term.

Rock - why would a few hours work in the evening stop you breastfeeding? Plenty of women manage to combine work with b/feeding.

I did wonder this but I imagine the answer is one of the following:

• high earner (perhaps with big mortgage/school fees)

• low earner, but because of tax credits better off working

• children cared for free by grandparents

• shift parenting, eg when dad does night shifts so no childcare costs

Those who can't afford to go to work generally have a partner who is paid enough that family don't get tax credits, no free childcare and job that is not very well paid.