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Original poster

What are those little red Flowers!

144 replies

Angree · 29/10/2010 19:03

I was enjoying a rare coffee in Starbucks this morning and I heard a shocking conversation on the next table.

There were two girls about 19/20 and one said to the other "What are those little red flowers that everyone is wearing...is it a fashion thing?" The other one said "I think its something to do with Cancer".
Shock

I mean really W.T.F, how do you get to that age and not know about poppies?

OP posts:
LittleRedPumpkin · 30/10/2010 01:09

Cross-post again tainted. See my earlier posts: all of them. As I have said and explained, I didn't understand the problem with white poppies. I am sorry if I upset you by referring to those.

LittleRedPumpkin · 30/10/2010 01:12

penguin - it's disrespectful because it initially symbolized the fact that poppies grew on all the graves of WWI dead.

People thought that the poppies were a sign of new growth and hope, a sign that this sacrifice was the 'war to end all wars'. It is so disrespectful to use that symbol in the context of further wars. Of course, we now know those men who died in WWI did not 'end all wars', but many of them really believed they would.

We also have to remember that many people in the world wars fought for different ideals than we do now, and it's not fair to pretend that people who fight now, fight for the same reasons. They are individuals, not just 'the army'.

taintedpaint · 30/10/2010 01:13

No, you're not upsetting me, I just find it quite interesting talking to you about it! I've seen white poppies on people in my local town and it's not really something you can approach people about so it's good to be able to discuss it.

NowPanicAndFreakOut · 30/10/2010 01:16

YANBU

From the Poppy Appeal's website....

"11 November 1918 signalled the end of The Great War; the Armistice between the Allies and Germany came into effect. Since 1921, the nation has come together to remember the sacrifices that hundreds of thousands of British and Commonwealth Service men and women made not just during the Great War, but World War II and all subsequent wars and conflicts including Iraq and Afghanistan."

It is not just history. It is what a lot of people are going through now.

There are hundreds of women on Mumsnet who are missing their OH's away on service and risking their lives for our country. Luckily most don't die - but that doesn't mean they aren't important and don't need our support. The RBL help not only widows/widowers but injured and traumatised ex-forces and their families.

My DH (thank god) came back from his tour three years ago safely but Poppy Day / Armistice Day is something we should all celebrate and support.

There is no excuse for ignorance - by 19/20 years old you cannot keep blaming others.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I really think the girls you overheard ABU

LittleRedPumpkin · 30/10/2010 01:16

Glad I didn't upset you - that is not my aim!

This thread has shown me that white poppies might be taken the wrong way by many people, so I will not be wearing one. I am still sad there's no sign I can wear that suggests I don't approve of sending people to be killed. It is horrible.

penguin73 · 30/10/2010 01:19

or the RAF, or the RN etc etc........
Regardless of its origins people now associate the poppy with the RBL, with Remembrance of all fallen servicemen and women and have done so for a very long time. No differentiation should be made as they have all made the same sacrifice (albeit for different reasons) and it is the fact that somebody was prepared to make that sacrifice for their country that is being remembered. I would be very surprised if you could find one veteran or serviceman to agree with you on this, the poppy is too valuable and highly thought of to be replaced.

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 30/10/2010 01:21

I don't really think white poppies are a protest. They are a way of saying "I remember" as well - not wearing any kind of sign is more of a protest IMO.

Before the Iraq war I was constantly told that I shouldn't be protesting as it was "disrespectful" to the soldiers - well, I disagree. The soldiers in the army go where they are sent, and they are brave and I support them fully. What I don't support is the decision to continue to engage in wars.

taintedpaint · 30/10/2010 01:21

Yes, it's difficult. If there was another day and another symbol that were used to say what I know you are trying to say, I would more than likely be with you on it.

taintedpaint · 30/10/2010 01:22

Sorry, last post was to LRP.

taintedpaint · 30/10/2010 01:26

Evil, I think that's what some of the white poppy wearers wear them to say, but it doesn't seem to be the majority or possibly even the organisers intent. The fact that the symbol is identical except for colour, and the day used is the same as the classic one, that clearly marks the white poppy out to be a protest.

I think you feel remarkably similar to the way I feel. I support the people going to war, I just do not and can not support what they are being sent to do. And I wear a red poppy to remember those who don't come back, choosing not to wear a white one because I don't want to mark the conflict, I want to remember those whom I respect.

LittleRedPumpkin · 30/10/2010 01:33

Yeah, tainted, I think we're both searching for the same thing.

penguin - no, the poppy as a symbol is really recent! We're discussed this hugely on this thread, how can you have missed it?!

To make no differentiation between soldiers who die is barbaric. They are not just people who die, all the same. They are individuals and some of them did not even agree with the current war, but still had to fight.

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 30/10/2010 01:47

I read that the white poppy was founded by the Co-operative Women's Guild which worked to promote peace even before WWI, and protested before the start of the war in 1914. They produced the first white poppy in the 1920s I think, so obviously all of those involved had lived through the war and lost friends/husbands/sons/fathers.

I think that it is right to wear it on remembrance day/Sunday, because it is in remembrance. It is not a piss take of the red poppy, it's not a pastiche, it's a symbol of remembrance and of the wish for future generations not to see their family members go off to fight and maybe die as current and previous generations have. Sometimes the imagery of the poppies is used by the army/govt (IMO) to silence any dissent about what they are choosing to do with our armed forces, as if any opinions other than "war is always necessary and great" are disloyal to the dead, to veterans and to those currently serving. The white poppy to me is worn at the same time as the red one to remind myself and others that this is not just the inevitable circle of life - going to war is a choice and one which it seems is sometimes taken far too lightly.

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 30/10/2010 01:49

And by "going to war is a choice" I mean a choice for the government and the military, not the individual people in the Army/RAF/RN.

LittleRedPumpkin · 30/10/2010 01:53

Ele, I don't disagree, I just feel that if it really upsets people, it has lost its purpose.

CheerfulYank · 30/10/2010 01:54

In the US we wear poppies all November, so it's not just a Britain thing. (Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone's pointed that out, sorry)

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 30/10/2010 02:19

LRP - I don't want to upset anyone, but at the same time I don't feel it has offensive origins or a currently offensive agenda, so IMO if people get upset by it that is based on a misrepresentation. If people get upset by it or want to take me to task on it IRL, I'm happy to listen to them and discuss it.

drfayray · 30/10/2010 02:20

In Australia, children are taught about the purpose of Remembrance Day and observe the silence. My children's schools have a special service (both state schools). We also have ANZAC day which is a public holiday and all shops are closed, with supermarkets etc opening in the afternoon. This is so that people can attend the parades. What impresses me is that many young people go to Gallipoli in Turkey, to attend the Dawn Service.

*Anzac Day is a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand, and is commemorated by both countries on 25 April every year to honour members of the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC) who fought at Gallipoli in Turkey during World War I. It now more broadly commemorates all those who died and served in military operations for their countries. Anzac Day is also observed in the Cook Islands, Niue, Samoa and Tonga.

nooka · 30/10/2010 02:57

Here in Canada Remembrance day is a really important day too. Much more than in the UK, and very much about WWI although again about all veterans. We will have the day off, the two minutes silence, dd is signing at a special assembly and both children will also be in the Remembrance Day parade (they are in Scouts/Guides).

I think that WWI is seen as very different by many people, with good reason. Very much about the futility of war, but I suspect all conflicts acquire meaning that isn't necessarily historically accurate.

onimolap · 30/10/2010 04:23

I was surprised at how long the White poppy has been around: it originated in 1926 with the No More War Movement, and the Co-operative Women's Guild put them into production in 1933.

But the current organisation states its interest to "abolish the military and all that goes with it".

I find this offensive on Remembrance Day, much more so than anyone who doesn't wear a poppy. Especially as there is no-one who wants to see war averted more than the professional soldier, sailor or airman.

On a lighter note: what do you think the young people whose comments provoked this thread made of the 2008 X-Factor, who released a military fund-raising single? (Cover of "Heroes"). Do you think they have short memories, or didn't get it, even from that format?

Original poster
Angree · 30/10/2010 06:24

No, the OP is sadly not joking.

OP posts:
SuePurblybilt · 30/10/2010 06:41

I don't see and have never seen white poppies as a protest, more as a way of honouring those lost through conflict whilst expressing hope for peace. I don't mind donating to the legion but to me red poppies symbolise the blood of those killed in conflict. I prefer to remember their sacrifice with hope, through a white poppy. I've also always associated it with pacifism and the Quaker movement - I don't think Rememberance Sunday is just for the military. As an earlier post said - it's about remembering all those that suffered and continue to do so in all conflicts.

I think, and I'm trying to word this so as not to offend, that those who wear white poppies are certainly not disrespecting the current armed forces or past military losses. They've thought about their position, often more than those who put 20p in a doorstop collection for the usual poppy, and are trying to show support whilst remembering the ongoing wish for peace. It's unfortunate that this is seen as offensive but I genuinely cannot understand why.

HowsTheSerenity · 30/10/2010 06:54

I remember there was a thread last year about white poppies. Big nasty thread too.

We too have Rememberance Day in Australia. However it is held on the 11th (11th hour, 11th day, 11th month) not on the nearest Sunday. Services are always on the 11th irregardless of what day it is.

We wear poppies. I wear one in memory of my grandfathers, what happened during the war and also in respect for serving defence force members.

As for standards dropping in the UK, I have worked in schools here and was more horrified that the children did not even know the national anthem. I had to teach them and I am not even British!!!

HowsTheSerenity · 30/10/2010 06:56

Drfay - I totally agree. I went to Gallipoli in 2006. Probably the most incredible thing I have seen and done. I wear my Grandfathers medals every year. I marched in the parade with him from age 2 until he died.

SuePurblybilt · 30/10/2010 07:16

Did it implode last year Howstheserenity? I shall bow out then as I really don't want to offend or upset anyone, it's news to me that they're so widely found offensive.
I think it's lovely that you're so proud of your grandfather btw and I imagine he was very pleased to have you marching with him.

nooka · 30/10/2010 07:18

I'm not sure that knowing the national anthem is particularly about standards. How often does anyone British ever sing the national anthem? I think it's because it's a bit odd to be singing about the Queen instead of your country. I would suspect there are plenty of British adults who wouldn't know all the words (and very very few who know more than the first verse, I had to look them up myself). Plus for many sporting events the various national songs are sung instead. On the other hand "O Canada" is sung monthly at school here, as was the Stars and Stripes in the States when my children were at school there, so they got to know the words quite quickly, although the Star Spangled Banner is quite long.