What are those little red Flowers!

[Angree]

I was enjoying a rare coffee in Starbucks this morning and I heard a shocking conversation on the next table.

There were two girls about 19/20 and one said to the other "What are those little red flowers that everyone is wearing...is it a fashion thing?" The other one said "I think its something to do with Cancer".

I mean really W.T.F, how do you get to that age and not know about poppies?

Well theres also the fact that large amounts of Irish men fought and died in WW1 while the civil war was raging at home, leading many to conclude that they were good enough for cannon fodder yet still an enemy to be killed at home. And we were neutral in WW2, or The Emergency as it was known here.

LRP, I agree with your sentiment, but I think the timing of the white poppy is terribly misguided. A different day should be designated. As it stands, I would imagine to most people, it is a political statement that shows immense disrespect to the intent of the red poppies. And if that is not the point of the white ones, it seems that the point is being missed and therefore harm is caused on both sides of the argument.

I'm not pro-war in Iraq btw. I'm just pro-respect on both sides.

tainted, I think we have to honour other soldiers on their own behalf. It is only rude to them to pretend that they are just corollaries to the WWI dead. There are real men and women out there. I may not think there was a good reason for the war they're fighting (and some of them think so too), but they surely deserve their own symbol of respect, because none of them signed up to fight either for the reasons of WWI, or for the reasons Blair gave for the war. That is so important.

What happens in Ireland to honour the war dead? I'm genuinely learning something here!

We should never forget anyone that has died in war, why then should we change the way we do so? The red poppy has been a recognised symbol of Remembrance for all conflicts since WW1 and is very successful in raising the profile of the RBL. You are confusing politics with Remembrance and that is the biggest issue here. If you support the work that the RBL do make a contribution; if you value the sacrifices made by people in war then wear a poppy. If you don't then fair enough - but why choose Remembrance Day to make your stand, thus deliberately hurting people who are already suffering? That is what I can't condone.

tainted, I expect I'm wrong about white poppies. I was told about them by my teacher at primary school and liked them, so automatically I missed the grown-up debate!

I think it would be better to wear nothing, or a different symbol, but it is a hard choice as of course the money from poppy sales is so important and it might go down if another symbol was chosen. It is never going to be a simple issue and I hope I didn't make it sound as if I was disrespecting anyone. That really is not my intention.

The red poppy symbolises remembrance, not just WW1 and that is the point that is being missed.

We still have Rememberance Day. And tbh most people respect the sacrifice and remember the indiscriminate slaughter of WWI. Most people, regardless of religious/political views lost ancestors in the conflict.

penguin, I don't personally remember anyone who died in WWI. I remember their collective sacrifice.

That is so very different from knowing current military personnel.

It is right and proper that we should care very much about people who are alive today and dying in conflicts today. And we must differentiate between these people and people who lived nearly 100 years ago. It is deliberately hurtful to pretend that WWI is somehow the same as conflicts today, or that soldiers who've died in the current war are not different enough that we can be bothered to think up a new token of remembrance for them.

I am [shocked], don't they teach it at school!

This isn't about the reasons behind war and conflict though.....it's purely about recognising somebody making a sacrifice for their country and remembering that sacrifice. Why must we differentiate? Nobody involved in the Poppy Appeal is pretending that all wars are the same, the point is 'to remember with gratitude the Fallen' - irrespective of how or when they fell. They have all made the same sacrifice and that is what is being remembered. The poppy is the emblem of the Legion - why should it change and risk further damage to a charity already suffering through the recession, the increase in the amount of other charities also asking for money and a general lack of support for the military in this country?

sixlostmonkeys the ignorance of some people. Its embarrassing.

Why must we differentiate?! Because these are people, not toy soldiers!

I don't understand where you are coming from. People fight and die, often boys who are very young. Don't we all owe it to them to remember them separately from a ceremony that for most people is associated with centenarians?

I held a minute's silence in my classroom last year, explaining what it was about beforehand and pupils who didn't want to take part were under no obligation to do so. It fell during break so any pupils in the school who wanted to take part just turned up. I received 5 parental complaints...

pumpkin:
are todays soldiers actually asking for a different token of rememberance? I'd be suprised.

Well, that is very sad, I agree. Not new: when I was at school our IT teacher asked us to take the minute's silence while we were all copying from the board! We were all sent to the headteacher's office, but he got the warning!

It just seems increasingly wrong that we treat WWI and II with such deference and fascination - WWII is an option for history at all levels of the curriculum - and yet we don't seem to think that children need to know about the war that is happening now, so much so that a child whose parent is in the military, will almost certainly hear peers saying we are not at war!

Grimma - I don't understand. Tokens are for the dead, aren't they?

"a ceremony that for most people is associated with centenarians" - this is why you don't see my point. Watch the ceremonies, go along to one, speak to people directly involved then see if they are merely ceremonies associated with old people. People who still hold this misguided belief are very, very wrong.

Every time I wear a poppy, stand on parade, shake a tin or help someone fill in a welfare application form I am thinking of everyone that has made a sacrifice - I don't need lots of different emblems to differentiate between relatives that died in WW1 and 2, friends affected by the Falkland Conflict and friends and colleagues injured and killed in the Gulf and Afghanistan.

Grimma - The poppy is cherished by the Armed Forces and any suggestion of getting rid of it would be met with shock and outrage.

I wear a white poppy as well (although usually buy a red one too). For me it is still about remembrance with the added message that I wish that wars would just stop. I can't stand seeing the massive ceremonies of remembrance that put current military might in the foreground. It was this kind of thing that started WWI for goodness sake. Also I think it's important to remember the victims of wars are not just our soldiers, they are soldiers from all countries, and they are civilians from all countries too. Around 80% of victims of wars are civilians, women, children and men who are just caught in the middle. If we are remembering wars, I want to remember the wholesale waste and loss that they entail, anything else seems dishonest.

I've got friends serving in Afghanistan at the moment and I doubt they'd think me wearing a white poppy was "disrespectful". It's just saying that I would rather they weren't there and that the war hadn't happened. I know they'd rather it hadn't happened too.

LRP, as I said, I do see your point, but the way the white poppy is handled is disrespectful because it is done as a protest rather than anything else. I wear a poppy out of remembrance, not because I support the war (because I don't). I don't think you sound disrespectful (if you did I wouldn't be finding any common ground with you!) but I think in general, some of those who think they are making a pacifist/peace etc point while still marking remembrance day do not realise how they are really seen or intended to be seen.

I simply do not see any reason to not respect Remembrance Day, no matter what corner you come from IYGWIM. Make a protest about the war all you like (I've done it), but don't hijack a day and a symbol that mean so much to so many people. Just my two pence worth.

And penguin73, parents complained about a minute's silence?! Wow.

Um, I've been to them. Every year since I can remember. I used to go to the ones in the village where I grew up. Old men, getting older, were the main focus. As far as I know it is the same in many places.

It is so cruel and wrong to pretend that the people who are in the army now, or who have died recently, are to be lumped in with the soldiers of WWI and II. I knew a girl who is dead: she was so bright and she would have done so much. She knew about the world wars, she had studied them. But in formal remembrance she is buried under a symbol that dates from 1918. That is just wrong.

I know that the poppy appeal makes money, and that is important. But I do think it is also important to have a basic level of respect.

So why do you believe in making a current protest with a symbol you believe to not be current? I really don't get that.

Sorry - my last was a cross-post, I was replying to penguin. I am re-thinking my ideas about white poppies as they sound increasingly as if they cause more harm than good.

I really don't get your point at all..... why is the Poppy, a long-standing and cherished symbol of remembrance, disrespectful? Being an old symbol doesn't make it wrong!