To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

BUT if that child is disabled he or she has no special privilege, and is not given the same rights as other children. How can anyone defend that?

When I was 10 years old I had a very disabled sister. Even during the pregnancy the doctors were aware something wasn't quite right (small fetus, little movements) but as this was 25 years ago they couldn't really diagnose anything.

My sister lived to be 13 months and I can honestly say it would have been better for everyone - my parents, me and my other siblings and her if she had not been born, and had been diagnosed and terminated etc. She had no quality of life, no development and had a massive impact of our family, and on my mum.

The main reason I think it would have been better if she had not been born is that she had and would never have had no quality of life at all. (Would have just been able to lie on back, have lots of epileptic fits and need to have milk fed by syringe etc).

And we had support network plus live in help - not everyone has that sort of luxury.

I know this is not the case for all disabled children, but I think the law is correct as it stands.

I wrote in my original post that I felt that mother was idealising her children, but then a lot of parents do that. My point was not that they were actually ideal but that she had let go of the expectations that other parents have and had accepted her children as they were and in fact she was very happy.

Of course we all have expectations for our children, my point is that if those expectations aren't fulfilled, does that make the child less desirable, less wanted?

If people are willing to have terminations at all, without huge emotion, then it means that most people don't feel that an embryo is a life and so having an embryo with abnormalities aborted is simply stopping yourself from having a non perfect baby.

I was discussing this with my sister last night and she thinks not only does our society give us the option to abort a child with abnormalities but it is frowned upon and questioned when people don't abort a child with disabilities, like it's selfish to give them life.....

most of that 124c will be pregnancies of very young mothers. normslly women have their 20 week scan and if they are ging to abort, do so after then. It is therefore young girls who come forward that late - or sometimes it is unclear whether the foetus will be viable - e.g. if lungs are underdeveloped - in which case a mother might want to hang on and re-scan at 24 weeks or later. just to make sure.

124 across a nation is a very small number - and you can bet each case will have some very special and sad circumstances that caused that lateness. to say it is straight forward discrimination is to take a very unsubtle and unsympathetic view of a complex issue.

Very sorry to hear about your sister MumNW. I hope this isn't an insensitive question, but do you think your mother feels the same way as you?

Posie I think your sister feels the same way as I do then. She has detected that subtle expectation that this society has that you should and will abort if the child is disabled, that going through with the pregnancy is somehow wrong and weird. My concern is that this attitude makes the already difficult lives of disabled people more difficult by subtly devaluing them as people.

I don't really understand the first part of your post. I don't want to misinterpret but are you saying that because people don't feel bad about having an abortion, then the difference in limits is ok?

Just to Clarify... I was just interested in the fact that the friend "said they were the ideal children".

my post was just pointing out to me that my own personal ideal for my own children, disabled or not, would not be that they were always around me even as adults. You said in the post about the woman that she said she felt sorry for parents with NT children which personally I think is a little strange, certainly not the way I see parenthood.

but I accept that we are all different and some of us don't really want to let our children go.

I'll have to come back to this, alldcs are home now!!

EAP, I sort of agree.. and sort of don't. I can't begin to imagine the pain that would underpin those decisions. However, I don't think that I am comfortable with the state judging it legal to abort a potentially viable baby because of disability.

I worked with a head-injured student some years ago who was judged to have "locked in" syndrome (as in "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly"). He was also significantly physically disabled, and very young. He had been a superstar student, destined for great things.. and his world was turned upside down.

I don't believe it was more painful for his mother to be confronted with this sudden disability than it would have been for any mother to be confronted with any severe disability. I could never argue, though, that the sadness of the situation would have meant it would be okay to terminate his life.

As it so happened, he made quite a significant recovery. He still had severe disabilities but the initial assessment proved inaccurate and he has grown up now and married, has a job and has travelled the world with assistance from a charity for the physically disabled.

Personally, I didn't take prenatal testing because I work with children with autism and other disabilities not detectable before birth, and would feel it somehow disrespectful to them to even put myself in a situation of considering aborting based on disability.

I am personally very uncomfortable with the idea of aborting babies with Down Syndrome and no associated health difficulties. I would rather see the state provide other options re: ongoing care/fostering/adoption than see a late abortion in these cases. I find it very difficult to see how late termination is a sensible or reasonable response to DS, regardless of the subtlety or complexity of the emotions involved.

" My concern is that this attitude makes the already difficult lives of disabled people more difficult by subtly devaluing them as people"

I just think that you are making an assumption that someone who terminates a child with a disability is automatically going to somehow look down on, or make judgements about, parents who who have children with a disability.

This isn't a natural or usual thought process IMO. I think it's quite likely that a person can make a personal choice for themselves about terminating for disability depending on their own lives and their own circumstances but can still be non-judgemental about disability in other people.

I don't think the decision is based on the quality of the expected parenting experience, Writer, which you have often invoked. The vast majority of women are concerned about the expected quality of life for their child.

A foetus with no diagnosed abnormalities will probably go on to be fit, healthy; live a long and contented life as usual. This is of paramount concern for expectant mothers. There's a small chance the child may turn out to have congenital defects. It's the luck of the draw. One with known abnormalities will definitely go on to live a difficult life. It would be nice if not so but, pragmatically, the choice to continue a 'compromised' pregnancy is the choice to have a disadvantaged child. It takes confidence to knowingly make that choice.

I, too, would prefer it if life, people and money were capable of ensuring a smooth & satisfying life for all people, however 'abled'. That is not how things are just now, though. The choice to discontinue a pregnancy is all about the life that child may reasonably expect if born. Afaik, the time limit is different for abnormal foetuses because of the constraints on testing. As I've said, I support choice to term for all pregnancies, but I don't feel the current variance is a form of discrimination; it's simply pragmatic.

In choosing to abort an abnormal foetus, the parent is not making an ideological choice imo. She's making a choice on behalf of the child that foetus would become. If she's rich, surrounded by support and confident of ongoing stability, she'll find it easier to say Yes to a congentially disadvantaged child. I don't believe any woman finds it easy to say No, btw. It's an agonising choice - one that must be made in the real world, not in the bubble of theory.

"RunawayPumpkin how do you feel about the fact that a disabled foetus can be aborted up until birth while for a non-disabled foetus there is a limit of 24 weeks?"

but this isn't correct - healthy pregnancies can be terminated later too - if the mothers physical or mental health is at stake. as the article you linked to showed - a quarter of 20 weeks abortions due to anormality. the other 75% therefore were not due to abnormality - it counteracts your own argument!

i can (i think) see what Posie is getting at.

i didn't think it would be fair to knowingly bring a child into the world to get operated on time and time again merely to fulfil my desire to have a baby. It wouldn't have been fair on the child-to-be.

"but so so often posters suggest termination in discussions" gosh - really? I have never really seen anyone suggest that, unless someone has posted that this is the choice they are already considering.

I agree with what you say quietly, I feel the same way having come from Ireland. I think it's hard to express to someone from Britain the shock at casual mentions of abortion. That's not to say we're all rabid pro-lifers by any means, it's just a purely cultural thing. I know absolutely no one in RL who's had an abortion, so I suppose that significantly colours my attitude.

Ive had an abortion, two in fact. Only since having a child have my views on the potential of those children changed from them just being cells. I couldnt have an abortion now but that it because they would be the brother and sister of my children.

If my unborn child was disabled i think i would abort it.

"I know absolutely no one in RL who's had an abortion"

ah but it may be that you know no one who has told you that they have had an abortion?

well quite, the stats speak volumes - lots of abortions - must be happening to somebody! mostly 18-25 year olds so probs by the time they are 30-somethings it is long behind them. And again, not the kind of thing you bring up in casual conversation - especially not if you believe the person you re talkign to may be unsympthetic to it.

2 My concern is that this attitude makes the already difficult lives of disabled people more difficult by subtly devaluing them as people"

I just think that you are making an assumption that someone who terminates a child with a disability is automatically going to somehow look down on, or make judgements about, parents who who have children with a disability"

well quite DF - and the OP hasn't considered the rather obvious fact that some parents with one disabled child may go through the screening the next time and abort - knowing exactly what having a child with disabilities entails, and still loving of their first child. (and also, for a chromosomal d-x their chance of conceiving a second child with the same d-x would probably be higher than the average persons)

This is also the society that gives 'motherhood' medals for women with children with disabilities, we tilt our heads and think we could never do that, we think parents of SN children are more deserving of 'great parent' awards and see disability as adverse.

ItsGhoulAgain, I understand and appreciate your point about being pragmatic about the life that faces disabled people now and I would certainly have to think long and hard if I was told that my potential child would have limited to no-quality of life as a result of their disability.

In some ways, this is why I feel uncomfortable about the abortion of foetuses with DS with no identified health difficulties. There are a great many healthy, happy adults with DS. I do wonder if this decision is more about the fear of what it would be like to be a parent to a child with learning disabilities and what the fall-out is to the mother later if she meets healthy, happy people with DS. It must be a horrendous thing to go through, and while I wonder how much it is the fear of the unknown, I can see that if you were poor or alone or had never met anyone with DS it might seem the obvious option. I just wonder how much positive information is given to people when there is a diagnosis of this type - or how much, as others have said, termination is almost expected.

I don't say any of this to be inflammatory. I was really shocked when a colleague who works with children with special needs told me she would abort if tests were positive to DS. It is simply something I don't understand and, I suppose, something that people don't have an opportunity to discuss openly. I wanted to ask her why, but couldn't think of how to do it without seeming judgey - yet I really, really don't "get it". Parenthood seems such a tremendous gamble anyway.. and while, believe me, I would cry buckets if I thought any child I would have would face hardship or health issues or discrimination, termination seems such a harsh and final response. However, I am also Irish.. and although I would have been the very one shouting at my religion teacher's about a woman's right to choose, as an adult, I will admit my views have been coloured by all those school discussions of abortion.

So we must think being a parent is much harder when the child has SN.

for DS, sorry