To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

LKC Frog I made my choice - I took the pill but then that wouldn't be approved of either in the catholic church! But for another thread I think.

lightly I don't blame you for being upset by that. I had a similar unpleasant experience in Dublin. A pro-lifer gave my dcs balloons with stop killing babies or something inflammatory on them. Pushed them in to their hands to be precise, even though they didn't want them. It gave me the creeps. It also made me so angry. What right do they have to bully people and seek to control what total strangers do? In fact as we were walking away I had to tell my dc why I was so cross. I said that some selfish thoughtless people wanted to change the law so that they could run other people's lives. I also noticed men in the march that I saw. Women ought to carry the can alone though. Maintenance orders still defied regularly with no consequence, maintenance amounts still pitifully low,the pro-lifers not going to help with childcare costs etc...

Lougle what a beautiful post, so well expressed :)

Kungfupannda your post sums up so many of the issues really well (far better than I have so far).

While there are other important issues (very clearly laid out by kungfu) I feel the crux of the problem is the difference in abortion limits between disabled and non-disabled babies. I agree with 2shoes that if such serious discrimination occurs around people with disabilities before they're even born then this makes the job of gaining them more respect in life infinitely harder. I really can't see any justification for it. At all. Yes the child will be difficult to look after, and may have a hard life but that's true of millions of children who are not disabled. Why is it acceptable to terminate a child up to birth just because he or she is not physically perfect?

well said, yes having a child with a disabilitie is hard, but so is having an NT one(and I know which one is harder, the NT one Lol)

I agree 2shoes. I was talking to a parent of two children with quite severe disabilities once and she said she feels sorry for parents with NT children. When I asked her why she said even though her children are teenagers she always knows where they are, they still cuddle her and spend time with her, she doesn't have to worry about them going out and getting drunk or pregnant or killed. She said they were the ideal children.

I know in a way that was idealising them somewhat (as no one is perfect) but I could certainly see what she meant. I heard other parents make similar comments usually along the lines that the relationship they had with their disabled children was far more special and fulfilling than the relationship they had with their NT children due to the closeness of caring that was involved.

That's not to say it's in any way better to have a disabled child, it's to say that it's not automatically worse (as most people seem to assume). I do find it sad that most people seem to see disabled children as nothing but a burden.

it is not for anyone to judge, some people are very good at coping with a disabled child's needs others would not be and so choose not to have that child. It is a personal choice

RunawayPumpkin how do you feel about the fact that a disabled foetus can be aborted up until birth while for a non-disabled foetus there is a limit of 24 weeks?

Writer, this has made me think a lot and I was wondering what the stats are for people terminating late, do you know?

I don't know the stats, Posie, but I'll have a look. Thing is I don't think it really matters what the stats are, it's more the fact that two separate rules exist. If there was a rule that you could abort female babies up to birth but male babies only to 24 weeks, would we really let it stand?

Writer, gender and SN are completely different impacts upon a family. Although that said I would not have kept a baby with abnormalities even if it was my first....perhaps I need to ask myself why.

I had a quick look around for stats but they're very hard to find. Abortion Review has an article stating that the UK government was ordered to publish late abortion stats in 2009 but there's no follow up to this. According to the article the govt had stopped publishing stats due to outrage at abortions carried out for cosmetic abnormalities (not sure how true this is). Link :www.abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/615/

I also found a guardian article from 2008 stating that there were 3000 late abortions www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1581159/A-record-3000-late-abortions-in-Britain.html
In this article late abortions refer to later than 20 weeks and a quarter of them were due to foetal abnormality.

I agree Posie, but why does a non-disabled child have more of a right to live than a disabled child? Due to the impact on the family? Are disabled children really that much of a blight that their own rights are diluted to protect other people?

I would imagine a non-disabled child would also be aborted due to the impact he or she would have on the mother if born. But the law says that at a certain point the rights of the child outweigh the rigths of the family. So even if that child will have an impact, he or she must be born if gestation has gone beyond 24 weeks. The child therefore is afforded a special privilege.
BUT if that child is disabled he or she has no special privilege, and is not given the same rights as other children. How can anyone defend that?

"When I asked her why she said even though her children are teenagers she always knows where they are, they still cuddle her and spend time with her, she doesn't have to worry about them going out and getting drunk or pregnant or killed"

see, this runs as an exact opposite to my hopes and dreams for my children and would have formed part of my decision to terminate had I had a child with a chromosonal disorder.

I want and hope that my children will/can lead independent lives and that they can go out and get drunk and get pregnant and all those other things. Obviously anything could happen to them to prevent this being a posibility but I have never seen the ideal as having children who will stay with me into adulthood. I hipe they do all the se things safely and with common sense but it's really important that they and I have the freedom to do this.

Not meant to be in any way disrespectful to anyone who has children who can;t do this but it would certainly be more ideal for me and for them I think.

"Writer, this has made me think a lot and I was wondering what the stats are for people terminating late, do you know?"

the official stats say 124 terminations after 24 weeks in 2008.

Abortions where gestation has
exceeded its twenty-fourth week
account for less than 0.1% of the total.
There were 124 such abortions in 2008

source

Dueling I know this is a bit petty but if someone came along and said in Darfur only 124 women were raped, which is only 0.1% of the total people in a refugee camp, would that be ok? Figures are a bit meaningless really.

Also DF I totallly get what you're saying about wanting your children to be independent. I suppose it's important to remember that no matter how a child is born they won't always live up to your expectations and while parents of children with disabilities might not get all the "normal" stuff like seeing their children go to uni and get married and have kids, there are other equally satisfying rewards to having a disabled child. Yes, they might not fit in with what you envisioned but that doesn't mean they're not as valid or important. Aborting a child because they won't live up to your expectations isn't really acceptable in my view.

So the telegraph article you linked to is also a bit meaningless really in that case.

you can lie/manipulate with all statistics unfortunately.

All I know is the official stats state "The information is obtained from the abortion notification forms returned to the Chief Medical Officers of England and Wales" and that according to those figures in 2008 "the total number of abortions was 195,296, compared with 198,499 in 2007, a fall of 1.6%"

Yeah that article is meaningless, I said that in my post to Posie. I said I don't think stats are going to say anything useful but I will look for some and I did. A discriminatory or unfair practice isn't made any more fair by the fact that it isn't done very often.

I have had two terminations Writer for reasons of convenience to me and the impact on my life.

I appreciate you telling me that Posie, it must have been difficult for you to come to that decision. My point is, why is it easier to abort a disabled child than a non-disabled one?

I agree with DF regarding the 'ideal children' who as teenagers are still very dependent - that's not what I would want at all.

Writer, it may surprise you to know that it wasn't hard, in fact recent findings that teens have multiple abortions means it's not so hard at all.

Ok Posie, I don't mean to be insensitive but I don't see how your posts relate to what I'm talking about. I'm glad it wasn't too hard on you but you still haven't answered my concerns about the difference in limits.

NewOrImproved I answered Dueling's post about the "ideal" children. What do you think? I have expectations for my son, but if he doesn't live up to them then I think I'll still be as happy with him and love him as much. I certainly won't wish I aborted him.

Yes disabled children end up with different lives than non-disabled children, but is that a reason to abort them, because "it's not what you want at all?"

You have expectations for your son, and if he doesn't live up to them will you change your mind and claim that actually the thing he does do is 'ideal'?