To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

Lougle , your last paragraph has just described the first four years of ds2's life. He has chromosome abnormality but not diagnosed till he was 4. That was one of the reasons we had the nuchal for ds3 as an earlier diagnosis would have made a massive difference for all of us.

You describe your dd beautifully btw.

I never knew that, 2shoes, I always presumed that you knew from birth - I guess they didn't want to tell you because they knew that it was HCPs that caused it?

only time will tell.....
it does annoy me though as I thought I was loosing my mind.
but hey ho, sh could so easy have died and that would have been dreadful.

Thanks Lougle - I appreciate that

I suppose it is true that ignorance is bliss - until you have been there words are easily said and the reality is most peopel don't actually think through the realities when an abstract question arises.

I know I was one of those who always said without much thought that I would terminate for an abnormality. I also know that between the time when we were made aware of a serious potential problem and when DS2 was diagnosed as being "incompatible with life" both DH would have accepted anything and I mean absolutely anything if he could have been born alive.

I have now come full circle if you like because at the start of this pregnancy I sought a CVS and I would have terminated, but for a whole host of newly thought out reasons.

I think the point I am trying to make is that it really is so personal: to the individual, to the circumstances, to the time and most people don't believe that disabled children shouldn't exist anymore than most people believe woman should be forced to have children regardless of circumstance.

Thanks slightlycrumpled. It is so hard, isn't it?

You see, I can understand why having a child with a disability isn't an attractive 'sell'. I do see it. But then I see my DD, and I think "She is amazing. Don't you dare invalidate her!"

I am sad that I have offended you, though, NancyDrewRocks, if you are reading, because I never intended you to think that I was including you in my comment. I thought the fact that you had shared how hard it was excluded you. In fact, well I didn't really think, did I, because if I had thought, I would have made that clear.

x-posts, Nancy.

She is amazing. Don't you dare invalidate her!"
Luogle I thinks that sums it up so well

"But even so that is a vast number of British families who abort down's babies."

Xenia, I think you are interpreting the statistics incorrectly. I linked to the abortion stats earlier in the thread. IIRC it says that 90% of abortions are done under 13 weeks. this leaves 10% after 13 weeks. not all of that 10% would be terminations for Downs syndrome. So as a percentage of all terminations, those for downs syndrome are quite small. Unless I am getting the figures wrong?

I still don't understand what you mean when you say "Isn't it 94% of British parents who abort a down's child?" Do you mean you think that 94% of all parents have aborted a child with Downs Syndrome? Or that 94% of parents who test for downs syndrom and get a positive result through Amnio/CVS will go on to abort the pregnancy?

So if we were able to eradicate some of these disabilities given most parents if given a choice would have preferred their child not to have them, then presumably you'd all be in favour of that to spare the children the suffering? Just like we've eradicated lots of other things which hurt children, nearly got rid of polio, etc etc.

Yes, that's it. That's the feeling!!

Nancy your posts have been very moving.

I meant to lougle ' don't invalidate her'.

downs child!!!!

Sorry - I tried so hard not to say Downs child as I know you have picked me up on that before. No one batted an eyelid when Xenia said Downs babies though.

oh - hang on. I just realised I didn't actually say it, did I? I was quoting Xenia? Phew. You meant Xenia?

I remember last time we had this discussion it was pointed out to me that 'Downs child' was incorrect.

it was her I was pulling,
she is so intelligent! but can't get that right.

"So if we were able to eradicate some of these disabilities given most parents if given a choice would have preferred their child not to have them, then presumably you'd all be in favour of that to spare the children the suffering? Just like we've eradicated lots of other things which hurt children, nearly got rid of polio, etc etc."

Xenia, polio is a disease that changes the fundamental qualities of a child, at some point in their childhood. Like meningitis, etc.

What we are talking about is pre-natally diagnosable conditions or conditions that affected our children around or shortly after birth.

The difficulty with those conditions, is that our children become who they are through those conditions. They are intertwined in such a way that you cannot eradicate the condition without eradicating the child.

If I could have the same DD with the same qualities without the difficulties, sure. But I can't. Her sense of humour is partly the way it is because of her Learning Disability. It is because of her social interaction difficulties that she has reduced inhibitions and throws herself into the arms of strangers, winning them over even if they don't really 'do' kids. It is because of that that she is so engaging. I could go on.

You can't erase these disabilities without erasing the children they affect. In which case, I'll take the disability if I have to, because DD1 is worth it.

well if I have learned anything from these discussions it's been to get the terminology right. On that note I should go to bed, interesting debate once again. Hopefully not upset anyone too much. Night all.

Why have we gone from 92% to 94%?

92% of parents who choose to have the test choose to abort a foetus with Downs Syndrome. This is an incredibly biased sample. If you are not going to abort the foetus no matter what, you would most likely not choose to have a test that carries with it a risk of miscarriage.

Night, DF

lougle see that is the problem. dd is the person she is because of the CP, if you took the CP away she would not be dd, so I wouldn't change her as I love the person she is iynwim. what I would change though is the shit attitudes to her and people like her,

I know. That's the fascinating issue. All of us have bits and genetic bits which make us as we are in all kinds of ways. If we have no legs that makes life harder so I'd say let's find ways to eradicate whatever means our babies have no legs. Let's try to ensure babies are born with all their limbs even if the ones without limbs have other qualities. Let's seek to eradicate blindness even if it means their hearing is great and they become brilliant at XYZ in consequence.

Of course once a child is here that's different - you want your own but given the choice most wouldn't say they wanted a child with a challenging condition.

If your child could be born as they are but not deaf then yes I'd eradicate if it were possible the disability because you'd still get your lovely child with its personality etc etc whether it could hear or not and it's life would be easier.

(And just because people have disabled children they don't have to be all silly and PC over words)

And I'm back. Briefly. I am very pleased to see that the debate has continued very well.

I have to applaud Xenia for the way she expressed herself. I believe many people hold your view Xenia they just don't have the guts to say it. I don't agree with that view, but until people openly admit that they don't value disabled people and view them as a blight then there is no way to change that view.

Your argument isn't wholly unreasonable there, Xenia, but there is a difference between trying to reduce the incidence of certain disabilities, I mean no-one would willingly be exposed to german measles in pregnancy, or fifths disease, or listeria, and so on. We are all charged with minimising 'risks'.

However, it is a different thing to suggest that we should be identifying children who have these conditions prior to birth and aborting them.

So the premise that we should be trying to eradicate whatever means our babies have no legs, well in principle I would agree. But the premise that babies that have no legs should be eradicated, doesn't follow for me.

My DD1 would still be here if I had known about her condition prior to birth.

I don't actually think it is silly to take offence at 'Downs child' by the way. The whole issue is that whilst a child can have Trisomy 21, it isn't the only thing that defines them.

2shoes - I don't want to be confrontational or nasty but I'm not always good at expressing myself, so I'll try as hard as I can and please try to take it as a simple enquiry not a deliberate windup.

My question is - you seemed to say that because CP made and continues to make your DD the person who she is, you wouldn't want her to not have it. Do you think she would also make that choice? It almost sounds a bit selfish, to say 'I want you to be this person because this is the person I know and love' when in fact she might prefer to be the person she would have been without it.

I agree Lougle. I don't think anyone would disagree with Xenia that it important to eradicate the causes of suffering. But aborting children with Down Syndrome won't eradicate Down Syndrome so that's not an argument in favour of abortion.