To believe that Britain promotes eugenics.

[WriterofDreams]

I am aware this is going to be highly controversial and could upset some people but it's an issue that genuinely concerns me and I'm not just shit-stirring. I do expect to get flamed, but any reasonable argument or debate is very welcome.

I come from Ireland where abortion is illegal. I am fully aware that many Irish women go abroad for abortions so I'm not saying look how great we are we don't abort. However, until I moved to the UK I never heard of the practice of people testing their baby for anomalies and then aborting them if there was something wrong. It genuinely shocked me that a couple who tried to have a baby, went through the sometimes stressful process of ttc, got the longed-for bfp and then lived with the expectation of a baby for many weeks could then go and kill that baby because it had Down Syndrome or some other (non-lifethreatening) genetic condition. I have looked it up on a number of sites and extreme though it may appear I can't get past the feeling that this basically hidden eugenics.

What do you think?

but Lougle they will say "oh but we don't mean you"
that is all ways the get out clause.
some of the posts on this thread are horrid and sadly show how far behind the rights of the disabled are.

Oh and lightly I agree.

"2shoes dear girl would be safe from those who feel disability is an unacceptable prospect."

I am struggling to understand what you mean by this.

when people make choices about their own pregnancies they are just that, choices about their own pregnancy. No one is suggesting that parents would want to make decisions about other people's children or lives.

some people will just read what they want to read and not take it as it is truely meant.

I can understand why your so emotional about this subject, but really you should read some things objectively.

It's not about disability being unacceptable in itself it is about some disabilities being less easily managed in some circumstances. It's a very personal choice.

But if someone feels they cannot cope with or doesn't want any child for any reason I really struggle with the concept of forcing them to have that baby. It is hardly the mark of a civilised society is it?

I just think it's really strange for someone who, for example, has a child with a chromosonal disorder to expect all other people who find out they are carrying a child with a chromosonal disorder to continue with the pregnancy against their will.

DuelingFanjo because my dd's disability is untestable (sadly preventable, but weirdly people accept staff cocking up at the birth and don't kick up a fuss about that)

DF, Some people can't accept their own decision. They feel more comfortable with their own decision if other people make the same decision.

DuelingFanjo I don't expect all other people who find out they are carrying a child with a chromosomal disorder to continue with the pregnancy against their will.

What I do expect is that people could at least pretend to struggle with the decision, and not give the impression that a whole section of society is simply 'disposable'.

people do struggle with the decision, but why should they do so publicly? Not everyone is happy to do that and to be honest I don't understand why that would make it better for anyone :(

Do you mean that you have met people who have interrupted a pg without massive heart break?

Isn't it 94% of British parents who abort a down's child? No one really wants them when presented with a choice if you go on the statistics. It is an amazingly high abortion rate. NOr I suppose does nature - plenty of babies who miscarry are those with abnormalities and our species has continued and thrived because it tends to work towards the fittest surviving.

Also if disability is as good or better than not disabled then those deaf people who actively choose a deaf child and might indeed abort a hearing one are working along the right lines and people would say - great it's down's and abort babies who weren't if we thought disabled children were better than those who weren't disabled I suppose. Most cultures don't take that view.

Well, it would make me feel better to think that posters who are so blunt about the decision they would make might be at least a little tactful, rather than saying 'no way would I have a disabled kid', as some on this thread have done.

Would I take away DD's difficulties if I could? Absolutely. Would I have her any different to who she is? Absolutely not. Could I do the first without doing the second? No. She is who she is because of what she is.

and... if you get as far as doing tests like the nuchal scan then I would say the pregnancy is surely a wanted one. Most other terminations take place before 10 weeks for reasons other than disability, i.e not wanting to have a baby for whatever reason. Seems odd to suggest that anyone terminating a baby after tests at around 12 - 18 weeks would do so without an emotional struggle of some kind.

lougle I find that last comment really offensive. Because of my own circumstances I know many people who have chosen to terminate pregnancies where a serious condition has been diagnosed and the idea that any of them did so without an enormous amount heartache is absurd.

I have never spoken with a woman who chose to terminate due to an abnormality, who made that decision easily. It is a wretched choice to make and one that almost always involves devestation and heartbreak and to suggest that they do so readily is cruel

You're talking about woman who, in virtually every case, are longing for a child and are crushed by the choice that they face. I find it really sad that people find it so difficult to empathise in that situation.

Ah, ok, now I understand what you meant Lougle.

Xenia, 94% of parents who test. Many don't test. And I don't know many people who believe disabled people to be better - just the same value as any other human, whatever that is to you.

Xenia I think that in all the years I have been on MN, I have never once seen a post written by you that isn't cold and dispassionate. You really are quite incredible. Where did you get that particular....quality?

I don't understand the first part of your post Xenia.

I stated the British statistics although it's correct that only those who test are in that statistic. I had virtually no tests except a scan with my twins as I would not have aborted them.

But even so that is a vast number of British families who abort down's babies.

Well some people do put the better argument in relation to disabilty, deaf activists etc and that's a view too - who is to say what's better or worse. If we all had down's 100% on the planet or everyone was deaf or had high performing aspergers or whatever may be that would be better but it certainly seem those withough those difficulties think it better children were not bron with them, their own children that is, than are and people actively seek to ensure their children do not have disabilities.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't love a disabled child of course but that's a completely different point.

nancydrewrocked your posts have made very clear how heartbreaking your decision was, and I should have said earlier how sorry I am for your loss.

I was referring to other posters who have stated that there is no doubt in their mind that they would terminate a disabled child.

Nobody wants to know in advance that their child will never be independent and never go to university and never get married, but when it actually happens to them, people do accept it after the initial shock. So to say 'nobody wants them' isn't exactly true. People who abort a child with DS haven't experienced life as the parent of a child with DS. Usually, after the shock adn the period of acceptance is over, parents are delighted with their DS child.

Xenia, are you a high functioning autie by any chance?

I don't think anyone on the SN:children board would argue with you valiumskeleton, that if given the choice, we would not delberately set out to conceive a child with disabilities. Disabilities are, after all, as they imply, disabling. Or at the very least, disabling given the society in which we live.

However, not everyone would choose to abort a pregnancy that revealed the mother to be carrying a baby that would be disabled. I have a friend who carried her baby with anencephaly to term +, and savoured a few minutes with her baby before she died.

I personally would have welcomed knowing about DD1's disability prior to birth, because I would have been spared the early years thinking 'there's something not quite right here' and being told that she was fine and I was being PFB, when actually her brain was malformed even in the womb. She could have had portage from 6 weeks old, instead of having to wait until 3 and only getting portage outreach because she was in preschool by then. She could have had physio to help her develop her gross motor skills instead of being left to walk haphazardly at 23 months. She could have had OT to help her feeding, her fine motor skills, etc. She is so behind now, she is at special school. Who knows with earlier intervention what we could have done?

Lougle I so get that, I also would have liked to have known earlier, it took 8 moths I think for the sodding doctors to tell me(I mean dd was 8 months) yet they knew all the time.
so I understand that